Drop knives, Harry Potter actor’s family pleads
THE grief-stricken parents of the Harry Potter actor stabbed to death outside a London bar yesterday made a TV plea for youths to stop carrying knives.
Robert Knox’s father warned: “With knives there are no winners, only losers.”
“If you are a person who carries a knife, think about the consequences and, for my son’s sake, don’t do it,” Colin Knox said.
Rob had just finished work on Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, due out in November.
He had a minor role as student wizard Marcus Belby, but was to appear in the next Potter film.
His parents said they hoped their son’s fame would focus attention on London’s worsening knife culture.
Mr Knox, 55, who works in media production, said: “If it serves that purpose, then Robert will have done something else exceptional.”
You can ban guns, but you’ll just have people getting killed by some other method. Look at the Middle East, you can get stoned to death over there. South Africa? I hear getting ‘necklaced’ is back in style. What is ‘necklaced’? Basically, someone puts a tire around your neck and fills the inside with a flammable liquid and sets it afire. Cool, eh?
It’s always sad to see a kid with a future dying. I grew up with a kid that got into a fight and fell down and hit his head and ended up dying. It was accidental but it’s still sad. Even though the guy was a jerk, it’s just not the way or time to go.
May 30, 2008 at 8:21 am |
coincidentally, I left a comment at kris’ blog the other day emplying the same idea. Guns are banned in England, so people carry knives, and PCs wear ‘Stab Vests’. When they bann knives, the PCs will be wearing ‘Chop-Stick vests’ or a reppelent for whatever the popular weapon becomes.
Weapons don’t kill people; people kill people.
BTW, where do you live now? I worked on the North Slope for about 4 months, and visited my cousins in Anchorage for a required R&R. Stayed in Fairbanks for a few days as well.
May 30, 2008 at 6:30 pm |
I’m in Anchorage, East side. Let me know the next time you’re up here. What did you think of Fairbanks? I’ve been there a couple of times. Either I missed all the excitement or there just isn’t much up there to do.
North Slope, eh? Nothing to do up there but work. I’ve been here since ‘95 or so and I still haven’t gone to Denali Park, or Kodiak Island. One of these days I’ll make it to some of the nice places like those.
“Weapons don’t kill people; people kill people.”
Hmm, what about “People don’t kill people, Liberals kill people.”?
Kinda joking, but I’d like to see stats on the political affiliations of the murderers, rapists and such.
May 31, 2008 at 6:02 am |
When the Exxon Valdez (sp) ran aground, a position with the USFS opened up and my cousin was selected to fill it. Her job was to analyze the damage and allocate funds for reparations.
After she completed her specific task, she and her husband moved to Cordoba Island and opened a charter fishing business that didn’t generate as much revenue as anticipated. So they moved back to Anchorage and seem to be quite happy now. While on R&R, she took me down to Portage Glacier, and we drove around a bit. Her husband Jim’s contribution was taking me to The Great Alaska Bush Company… ahem.
While in Fairbanks, we stayed at the Polaris Hotel for a few nights, and wandered around the town… in -50° weather… once. I’ve done smarter things in my life. The second night there, a very large Inuit woman who had a master key to the hotel rooms decided to pay a visit to my bud and was most willing to ’service’ him for a mere $20.00. Seems the natives aren’t highly motivated to work with their state sponsored stipend.
We currently have no plans to visit anytime soon, but it’s always a kick to meet fellow bloggers. If we get up there, I’ll let you know.
May 31, 2008 at 3:49 pm |
“Cordoba”
Shouldn’t that be Cordova?
The Bush Co. Lol! Everybody has to visit it! I’ve only been there a few times. Honest.
“Seems the natives aren’t highly motivated to work with their state sponsored stipend.”
Some are quite motivated. But too many just are content with sucking off their Native Corp. Dividends/Alaska PFD’s and other government aid. That’s why I’m against handouts versus a hand up. They do get free health care here too. Some folks are quite ‘racist’ towards them. I don’t think most of it is truly ‘racism’ as much as it is one group getting more freebies than another from the government.
June 1, 2008 at 4:41 am |
OK,OK, look at the ‘b’ and the ‘v’ on your keyboard, and then cut me some slack. I’m missing a digit on my left had, LOL!
A few times at the Bush Company?! Men, you’re a high roller! It cost me over $200 bucks when I was there… uh… never mind
June 1, 2008 at 11:00 am |
Ok, your slack is cut. I didn’t know if it was a typo or just you had the name wrong. Forgot about that missing digit, doh!
I’ve only gone when someone has dragged me there. My wife doesn’t approve of it and I’m not much of a window shopper. Lookie, no touchie! It just doesn’t seem fair, you know what I mean?
Anyways, have you spent much time over at KayInsanes place? They are the most dense people I’ve ever encountered. They talk about how much they support the troops, but a vet like me gets no respect. Odd, eh? The only vets they seem to support are the ones that have turned to the dark side. The last two posts I made were even deleted. I guess they don’t like losing an argument!!! Such amazing behavior from the ‘free speech’ crowd. I need to make a post about my experience. Something akin to Jane Goodall studying the apes.
June 1, 2008 at 2:47 pm |
I don’t have much of a stomach for Kay. the only time I commented there was her post about troops being killed, and her son got a day off from school and she cheered for both.
I don’t have much use for a person that despises us veterans. I’d suggest writing a comment, posting it, copy to PDF the comments, then when she deletes it, copy again and then create a post about the free speech advocates censoring free speech, LOL!
June 1, 2008 at 5:02 pm |
I thought about re-posting too. I tried to get her to comment on a couple of things but she let her goon ‘Clif’ monopolize the commenting. She just jumped in to high-five Clif. Classy lady, eh? I’d just like to know why these moonbats can’t seem to answer a question. Are they afraid of the truth or what? Every now and then I’m wrong about something and when I find out about it, I’ll admit it. That seems to be a trait that these moonbats don’t have.
Name calling, distractions, hypocrisy, double-standards…. the list goes on like the energizer Bunny. Oh, and analogies too. Unless you have it nailed perfectly, they won’t understand the meaning. Even though the average fifth grader could catch the meaning, it won’t matter. It’ll just be a way to distract from your point.
I think Kay couldn’t take it that I quoted Ann Coulter too. I’m really not a fan of hers, but she does have a few good points. And I’m fair enough to look at a lefty that I don’t like and admit if they have good points too. Lefties like Kay can only agree with fellow lefties. Talk about being closed minded!
And I learned if you have two ‘masters degrees’, then it’s ok to be a complete asshat. Talk about being arrogant! No wonder they’re voting for Obama. What is it about that guy that attracts losers? Really, his pastors, Ayers, Kayinmaine…. Sheesh!
June 2, 2008 at 8:10 am |
I have come to the conclusion that being ‘Liberal’ means one does not have to follow any rules, whether governmental or ethical.
One can behave as one chooses; the ultimate freedom of anarchy and insanity. In reality, it is only an excuse that they use to justify living without self control. It is the sexual revolution of the 60’s and 70’s personified in aging adults that didn’t succumb to AIDs. They resemble grade school children who are unable to rationalize and solve word problems. they lash out verbally, and occasionally physically, they cannot stand up to criticism and constantly argue from emotional positions.
They have never matured into adulthood.
June 3, 2008 at 2:00 am |
Yeah, you’re right – prohibition doesn’t work. And knives are soooooo messy! Someones going to have to clean that blood up. y’know! Now, imagine if that kid had had a gun – he would been able to kill the other kid without going anywhere near him, nice and clean, bang. Dead. Simple and effective. And what if the other kid had struggled? Well! He might not have died at all! Mercy! No, let’s just cut to the chase and hand out guns. So much more efficient, don’t you think?
But why stop there? I mean, nu’cler bombs are so much more efficient than all that messy combat, so why are they prohibited? Prohibition doesn’t work, so let’s just sell A-bombs on the open market! On the Interwebs! And then, well, if we see someone comin’ at us with a thermonu’cler device we can nook ‘em first!
If you want to know a bit more about British yoof and their knives, read these:
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/5196
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1725547-1,00.html
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/turning_knives_into_art.html
But for God’s sake don’t give ‘em guns – God doesn’t have the space.
Cheers
Elroy
June 3, 2008 at 3:19 am |
Yeah, just give ‘em guns, good plan. Knives are so inefficient.
For some more insights on UK yoof and their wayward ways, read:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1725547-1,00.html
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/5196
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/04/turning_knives_into_art.html
Or not, but remember – knowledge is power.
Cheers
Elroy
June 3, 2008 at 6:12 pm |
“No, let’s just cut to the chase and hand out guns. So much more efficient, don’t you think?”
Me thinks you have the concept of ‘banning’ and ‘efficiency’ confused. Try Wiki or Websters.
“I mean, nu’cler bombs are so much more efficient than all that messy combat, so why are they prohibited?”
Nuclear bombs can be more ‘effective’, not more ‘efficient’. Residual radiation isn’t very efficient.
“But for God’s sake don’t give ‘em guns – God doesn’t have the space.”
Are you sure? Go find out and then tell me. Hehe, just kidding. Funny tho.
June 4, 2008 at 5:18 pm |
‘Me thinks you have the concept of ‘banning’ and ‘efficiency’ confused. Try Wiki or Websters.’
Not at all. I merely make the point that guns kill more people more quickly than knives; that is to say, they are more efficient.
‘Nuclear bombs can be more ‘effective’, not more ‘efficient’. Residual radiation isn’t very efficient.’
Again, I merely make the point that nuclear bombs kill more people more quickly than guns; that is to say, they are more efficient.
And BTW, that ‘residual radiation’ thang doesn’t seem to be bothering the Penatgon any ¬– the desert sands are alive with the sound of exploding depleted uranium munitions.
‘Are you sure?’
Yes. Ever been to England?
Cheers
Elroy
PS –did you check out those links?
June 4, 2008 at 10:24 pm |
“that is to say, they are more efficient.”
Give it a rest already. Doing something FASTER does not make it more EFFICIENT!
I can give you a 15 second haircut but would it be more efficient? I thinks not!
What? It takes you 5 minutes to smoke a cigarette? Do it in 10 seconds and it’ll be more efficient! And just how will those results work out? Thought so.
“And BTW, that ‘residual radiation’ thang doesn’t seem to be bothering the Penatgon any ¬– the desert sands are alive with the sound of exploding depleted uranium munitions.”
Of course not. That’s over there!
“Yes. Ever been to England?”
Actually, no. But what does England have to do with Heaven?
June 16, 2008 at 2:58 pm |
‘Give it a rest already. Doing something FASTER does not make it more EFFICIENT!’
It depends what you want to achieve. If you are trying to kill someone, I would have thought that speed was of the essence, for at least three reasons – one, they might quite naturally be tempted to try to kill you; two, they might have a crack at running away, and three, taking one’s time to snuff out another is tad, well, goulish, don’t you think?
‘I can give you a 15 second haircut but would it be more efficient? I thinks not!’
Again, it depends on the haircut. If I am in a US Marine boot camp, I would expect a 15 second haircut as the primary task is to get rid of my hair; however, if I am Jennifer Anniston the parameters change somewhat – horses for courses and all that.
‘What? It takes you 5 minutes to smoke a cigarette? Do it in 10 seconds and it’ll be more efficient! And just how will those results work out? Thought so.’
Again, it depends. Some tobacco companies have been trying to develop cigarettes that smoke super fast so that office workers can suck down more fags more quickly on their breaks. It makes perfect sense for those with limited opportunities to get their nicotine hit and for the ciggie companies who get to shift far more product. The days of enjoying a leisurely Marlbro are over – smokers want to get it over with and get back inside out the cold.
And what do you think nicotine patches are for? They are drug delivery devices, just like cigarettes, so from the standpoint of introducing a drug into one’s system, a 10 second cigarette is far more efficient than a 5 minute one. Why do you think some junkies inject their heroin? You can smoke it, but injecting it is more efficient ¬– more buzz for your buck, so to speak. Likewise crack cocaine vs powder etc etc.
I am well aware that doing something faster does necessarily not make it more efficient, but I am amused to hear this coming from a self-confessed conservative. The core message we have had to endure from the acolytes of the Milton Freidman revolution (that would be you) over the past 30 years has been all about efficiency. It is more efficient for private enterprise to run everything, it is more efficient to make everything in China, it is more efficient to automate processes, it is more efficient for the banks to be run out of Mumbai, blah, blah blah, so you’re a bit off message here, tiger!
Maybe you have seen the light? Maybe you are wiling to view people as human beings with needs, and wants, and desires, and not dispensable cogs within the machine of commerce that can be discarded the moment they become ineffeicient? If so, you have a hot date with the GOP re-education camp. Have fun!
‘Of course not. That’s over there!’
Wow! Compassionate conservatism at work! If the idea behind weapons is to decimate one’s enemy, any munitions that can continue to incapacitate their target long after its initial detonation has got to be considered more efficient than one that doesn’t – its the bomb that keeps on killin’! Generations of ragheads completely buggered! Isn’t that plan?
OF course, the advantages gained by causing generational cancer and genetic abnormalities due to exposure to depleted uranium devices are discounted by the fact that US personnel are exposed to them as well, bringing the war back home birth defects and all. Oh, but wait? Isn’t the problem ‘over there’? Ask Army National Guard Specialist Gerard Darren Matthew and Staff Sgt. Ray Ramos.
http://www.democracynow.org/2004/9/30/daughter_of_soldier_contaminated_with_depleted
‘Actually, no. But what does England have to do with Heaven?
Good point. I’ll rephrase. Satan doesn’t have the space. Better?
Cheers
Elroy
June 16, 2008 at 9:52 pm |
“I am well aware that doing something faster does necessarily not make it more efficient, but I am amused to hear this coming from a self-confessed conservative.”
Good, now we agree. Just because I believe we should be fiscally conservative it doesn’t mean I believe we should outsource everything. Some things are beneficial but not all. I prefer to buy goods made here, or by our closest neighbors & allies.
“Generations of ragheads completely buggered!”
Sometimes you really do take great leaps of logic and/or assumption. While this may be work for some of those wingnuts you deal with, it probably won’t work well with me. I like to be different and think for myself.
Better, but how do you know how much space he has?
For someone who likes to write a lot, your blog is lacking in regular posting.
June 20, 2008 at 6:54 pm |
‘Good, now we agree. Just because I believe we should be fiscally conservative it doesn’t mean I believe we should outsource everything. Some things are beneficial but not all. I prefer to buy goods made here, or by our closest neighbors & allies.’
Good. OK. So at what point should the outsourcing stop? If we both agree that it can be detrimental then the only thing left to discuss is on what should be outsourced and how much of it.
But what, according to you, is ‘fiscal conservatism’? How do you define it? I mean, you sound like a bit of a protectionist.
‘Sometimes you really do take great leaps of logic and/or assumption. While this may be work for some of those wingnuts you deal with, it probably won’t work well with me. I like to be different and think for myself.’
I don’t need to take any leaps of logic to deal with those other wingnuts – linear logic confuses them just fine. However, am I wrong to assume that the object of the War On Terror™ is to wipe out militant Islam?
Still I’m glad you think for yourself – so do I. Perhaps we discuss things without slipping into the personal abuse so common elsewhere?
‘Better, but how do you know how much space he has?’
Because I’ve been to Britain.
‘For someone who likes to write a lot, your blog is lacking in regular posting.’
Because I spend too much time going to the mountain instead of having the mountain come to me. I like to debate, not just bleat into the wilderness. Having said that, stay tuned to Let’s Ask Elroy!™ for an update real soon! (NB Bring Pizza, beer and a sleeping bag – it could be a long night).
Or go there right now and try Elroy’s new super-quick quiz! No waiting!
Cheers
Elroy
June 21, 2008 at 12:39 pm |
“So at what point should the outsourcing stop?”
Good question. I suppose each commodity has a different breaking point. But the bigger question is, who controls the distribution of these resources/products? I don’t trust my, or any other, government to make the best decisions. Do you?
“But what, according to you, is ‘fiscal conservatism’? How do you define it? I mean, you sound like a bit of a protectionist.”
I don’t have a great definition for you. Lets just say we use the term loosely. I may be a tad ‘protectionist’ but that’s because I grew up in the Detroit area in the 70’s. I didn’t like seeing our automobile industry tank, or the large numbers of unemployed, or the neighborhoods deteriorate. It’s not a pretty sight. My father was a County Sheriff, and the county didn’t have enough money to pay their salaries. He couldn’t quit, so he had to work for free. Does that sound like a good situation to you? Is this something you would like? Sure, the Big Three has plenty of blame for it, but it doesn’t mean I have to like it.
“am I wrong to assume that the object of the War On Terror™ is to wipe out militant Islam?”
You could take it that way. I don’t. ‘Militant Islam’ is a debatable term. Some consider all Islam to be militant. I’m sure you can find Islamic Militants in many countries that we have no troops in. Does it mean we’ll be putting troops in them next? I doubt it. It wouldn’t have been that bad of a situation if we just kept out of Iraq, but since we did go in there, we sort of attracted them into the region. I don’t believe fighting militant Islam was a goal until we went into Iraq.
“Perhaps we discuss things without slipping into the personal abuse so common elsewhere?”
I hope we can avoid the abuse. I’d rather stay away from it. But some people seem to beg for abuse. Kayinmaine seems to be one. Her statements are clearly meant to draw fire. She doesn’t even attempt to be reasonable. I’m sure you’ve seen my thread over at her place? I was reasonable and polite and they still jumped all over me. I asked a few questions and eventually Kayinsane just decided she can’t handle the truth and banned me. So much for the ‘free speech’ crowd?
“Because I spend too much time going to the mountain instead of having the mountain come to me. I like to debate”
Well, you are better than most for making a good conversation. I have a few lefties as friends, we don’t always agree, but like I said- should that stop us from being friends/friendly? I think it’s shallow of a person to only surround themselves with like minded people. It can be more fun/interesting/educational to have a variety of friends/associates.
“Or go there right now and try Elroy’s new super-quick quiz! No waiting!”
I’m scared now! Is this the ‘Are you a Democrat or Stupidpublican’ kind of quiz?
June 23, 2008 at 12:52 am |
‘Good question. I suppose each commodity has a different breaking point.’
What does that mean? That we nationalize an industry once it has reached its breaking point? Why wait? Please, explain.
And how about services? How many services and functions formerly undertaken by the state can be successfully performed by the Free Market™? Some things are more efficient when performed by the state ¬ – economies of scale and all that. And some things cannot be performed for profit. And some things shouldn’t be.
‘I don’t have a great definition for you. Lets just say we use the term loosely. I may be a tad ‘protectionist’ but that’s because I grew up in the Detroit area in the 70’s.’
You sound pretty confused about economics all round. You say that commodities have an outsourcing ‘breaking point’, you are admittedly a protectionist but claim to be a fiscal conservative, yet cannot adequately define what that is. I think some clarification is in order.
‘But the bigger question is, who controls the distribution of these resources/products? I don’t trust my, or any other, government to make the best decisions. Do you?’
It depends on the government. I certainly wouldn’t trust a conservative government because they hate governments – they want to shrink them. The only reason they want power is to dismantle the state and make their jobs part-time. That’s one of the reasons your government has been so dysfunctional these last eight years – it has been staffed by people chosen for their ideological enmity toward government and who can be trusted to balls it up. Then conservative can say ‘See? Governments don’t work.’
I certainly don’t trust the ‘market’, as markets have vested interests in conflict with my own, and I don’t trust that guy I met at the pub because he’s an idiot, so who do I choose? The most disinterested and that, like it or not, is our elected representatives. The best worst case scenario.
In the end, it is dangerous to put our faith in any one ideology. Markets have their job to do, as do governments, particularly in regulating the markets. Let them both happen – we do not necessarily need to pick one over the other.
‘’I didn’t like seeing our automobile industry tank, or the large numbers of unemployed, or the neighborhoods deteriorate. It’s not a pretty sight. My father was a County Sheriff, and the county didn’t have enough money to pay their salaries. He couldn’t quit, so he had to work for free. Does that sound like a good situation to you? Is this something you would like? Sure, the Big Three has plenty of blame for it, but it doesn’t mean I have to like it.’
The left don’t like it at all – the left would much rather see people have jobs and productive lives. That is what they are about. The left would rather not exist, but as the poor and disadvantaged will always be exploited by the rich and privileged the left will aways be around.
So who exactly are you holding responsible for the fall of Detroit? Not the big three? Are you sure? You might like to notice that in other countries with comparable standards of living, such as in Europe, their auto industries have gone from strength to strength, and you’d have to ask why this is so. Read this: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20030901/hutton
‘You could take it that way. I don’t.’
I don’t either. But I thought that was the government’s message.
‘‘Militant Islam’ is a debatable term. Some consider all Islam to be militant.’
I don’t. But some Muslims consider all Christians to be militant. It depends on the temr ‘militant’ itself. Maybe I meant ‘Radical’. Militant radical Islam? Whatever, it’s the Muslim version of the west’s neo-conservative. Same stuff, different bucket.
‘I’m sure you can find Islamic Militants in many countries that we have no troops in.’
Like Saudi Arabia.
‘Does it mean we’ll be putting troops in them next?’
Nah. You just took them out. (Al queda’s No. 1 demand! Who said y’all won’t negotiate with terrorists?)
‘It wouldn’t have been that bad of a situation if we just kept out of Iraq,’
Bingo! Are you sure you ain’t no de-mo-crat?
‘…but since we did go in there, we sort of attracted them into the region.’
Not so much ‘attracted them into the region’ as ‘radicalized an entire generation, if not two or three, from every Muslim country on the planet’.
‘I don’t believe fighting militant Islam was a goal until we went into Iraq.’
Then you haven’t been paying attention. Bush has said that the Iraq war is a front on the War On Terror™, which started on 9/11. Is it or isn’t it? Or is it about regime change? WMD? I dunno, what day is it? I would have thought that if you are going to take your country to war then you must, at the least, at the very, very least, have a clearly defined reason and goal, and it must be utterly unavoidable.
So again, what is the WoT™ about? And if Iraq is not part of it, then what it is part of?
‘I hope we can avoid the abuse.’
So do I.
‘I’d rather stay away from it.’
Me too.
‘But some people seem to beg for abuse.’
That doesn’t mean you have to give it to them.
‘Kayinmaine seems to be one. Her statements are clearly meant to draw fire. She doesn’t even attempt to be reasonable.’
That’s her choice. No point whining about it. I have never more abused than over at ScrewLiberals, but I know that I make the decsion to post there. No one’s fault but mine.
‘I’m sure you’ve seen my thread over at her place?’
No, I see little point in stroking my fellow travelers’ egos. There is more important work to be done out in the field. Like here, for instance.
‘I was reasonable and polite…’
I’m sure you were.
‘…and they still jumped all over me.’
I’m sure they did. What’s up? Do you want compensation?
‘I asked a few questions and eventually Kayinsane just decided she can’t handle the truth and banned me. So much for the ‘free speech’ crowd?’
Ahem. To paraphrase: ‘I asked a few questions and eventually everyone at Screwliberals just decided they can’t handle the truth and have asked Jenn to ban me. So much for the ‘free
speech’ crowd?’
Sigh. It happens on both sides. No one has the monopoly on righteousness with this one.
‘Well, you are better than most for making a good conversation.’
Right back at ya, big boy! I try to be polite and reasonably intelligent.
‘I have a few lefties as friends, we don’t always agree, but like I said- should that stop us from being friends/friendly?’ I think it’s shallow of a person to only surround themselves with like
minded people. It can be more fun/interesting/educational to have a variety of friends/associates.’
I agree. Although, having said that, I cannot personally say that I have any conservative friends and/or associates. I don’t know why ¬– I just don’t meet them in my line of work or nieghourhood. I wish I did! But I do have…you.
I’m scared now! Is this the ‘Are you a Democrat or Stupidpublican’ kind of quiz?
Nah. But I’m still waiting for your answer!
Cheers
Elroy
June 23, 2008 at 5:57 pm |
This post is getting way to long! I do enjoy the chat and I apologize for not properly addressing each issue so I’ll just touch on the few that I like.
“What does that mean? ”
It could mean many things. We could outsource all computer chips but then we’d have a national security problem. I know many things can be sent out of the country for economic advantages, but we can’t ship every job overseas. What will we do? What skills will be lost because they aren’t done here? Lots of questions, you get the point.
“It depends on the government.” & “I certainly don’t trust the ‘market’,”
It all depends on where you are and what the rules are. I can agree with both.
“The left don’t like it at all – the left would much rather see people have jobs and productive lives.”
I agree with this but for some odd reason, in this country its a bit different. I’ve seen too many people that don’t want to work and just live off government handouts and they tend to be the liberal ones. Maybe liberals in your country are different?
“Bingo! Are you sure you ain’t no de-mo-crat?”
Well, according to Kayinsane, I’m a flaming neocon. I think she deals in absolutes. Either you’re voting for Obama, or you’re a flaming neocon that deserves to die a horrible death. Like I said, the last ‘political’ test I took put me in the Libertarian category. Unlike others, I can think outside the box. Maybe that’s why I confuse you. You expect or assume that I’m like the typical righty. As I’ve said before, I’ve adopted my beliefs by myself, I didn’t get the party memo.
“That doesn’t mean you have to give it to them.”
True, but sometimes I’m weak or in a bad mood. I’m not perfect.
“What’s up? Do you want compensation?”
Why would you think I want that? It never crossed my mind. Is this a lefty thing?
“Sigh. It happens on both sides. No one has the monopoly on righteousness with this one.”
Wow. I’ve said this (or something like it) so many times it’s not funny!
“I try to be polite and reasonably intelligent.”
Thanks. You’re better than most.
“But I do have…you.”
Ahh, a kleenex moment!
“Nah. But I’m still waiting for your answer!”
I’m blind. I didn’t see any quiz.
June 24, 2008 at 1:51 am |
‘This post is getting way to long!
So? It’s just us. Cosy, like.
‘I do enjoy the chat and I apologize for not properly addressing each issue so I’ll just touch on the few that I like.’
Excellent!.
‘It could mean many things. We could outsource all computer chips but then we’d have a national security problem. I know many things can be sent out of the country for economic advantages, but we can’t ship every job overseas. What will we do? What skills will be lost because they aren’t done here? Lots of questions, you get the point.’
Indeed. But that doesn’t sit well with your professed Libertarianism which dictates that one should be free to do whatever it is that is in one’s best interests, economic or otherwise, as it would require government legislation and acting against the individual good in favor of the common good.
Of course, it could be argued that the common good is ultimately the individual good, but that is for another day.
‘It all depends on where you are and what the rules are.’
The idea at the moment is that we all have the same rules – that’s what the WTO is all about.
‘I can agree with both.’
Not very libertarian of you.
‘I agree with this but for some odd reason, in this country its a bit different. I’ve seen too many people that don’t want to work and just live off government handouts and they tend to be the liberal ones. Maybe liberals in your country are different?’
You appear to be saying that people are poor because they are liberals. Wow! How very peculiar! I would have thought they were liberals because they are poor, as it is against their economic interests not to be, so there you go!
This ‘people don’t want to work’ canard is tiresome. You will find that, in contrast to the right-wing propaganda, most people do want to work – the system, however, does not allow for it. If you have ever tried living on welfare you will know what a hell it is, and if you haven’t I suggest you try before saying that it is a cushy ride,
‘Well, according to Kayinsane, I’m a flaming neocon. I think she deals in absolutes. Either you’re voting for Obama, or you’re a flaming neocon that deserves to die a horrible death.’
I cannot speak for her.
‘Like I said, the last ‘political’ test I took put me in the Libertarian category. Unlike others, I can think outside the box.’
You sure don’t think much like a libertarian – too much government interference. Have you seen this quiz? http://www.politicalcompass.org/test
‘Maybe that’s why I confuse you. You expect or assume that I’m like the typical righty’
I don’t assume anything. I’m not a mind reader – I can only take my cues from what I read. The more we talk, the more I understand your angles. I think. I hope. Maybe you assume I’m a
typical leftie, whatever that is.
‘As I’ve said before, I’ve adopted my beliefs by myself,’
As have I.
‘I didn’t get the party memo.’
Me neither!
‘True, but sometimes I’m weak or in a bad mood. I’m not perfect.’
And give up the high moral ground.
‘Why would you think I want that? It never crossed my mind.;
Oh, just because you were moaning so much.
Is this a lefty thing?’
On the contrary. It would definitely be a righty thing.
‘Wow. I’ve said this (or something like it) so many times it’s not funny!’
There you go! We can agree on something!”
‘Thanks. You’re better than most.’
Thanks. As are you.
‘Ahh, a kleenex moment! ‘
I’ve sold the rights to Hallmark.
‘I’m blind. I didn’t see any quiz.’
Look harder. The ‘Iran’ post. There’s prizes!
Cheers
Elroy
June 24, 2008 at 10:42 pm |
“But that doesn’t sit well with your professed Libertarianism ”
Very few things are perfect. It’s perfectly normal to have conflicting views.
“that’s what the WTO is all about.”
Not everybody is in it.
“Not very libertarian of you.”
Sue me.
“You appear to be saying that people are poor because they are liberals.”
You appear to have misunderstood me. Poor people will vote for the whichever pol will give them the most. Democrats are good for robbing the rich and giving to the poor. Why work for what you can get for nothing? When I first moved up here with a friend of mine, we both got jobs in the summer. Winter came and he quit his and I kept mine. He made more money on unemployment and the other programs than I did working. How do you think that made me feel? If I didn’t have morals, I would’ve quit so I could have more money. That’s what the problem is! Making more money when you’re unemployed!
“This ‘people don’t want to work’ canard is tiresome.”
Maybe, but I’ve seen enough first-hand to know that it’s still true. You can’t tell me what I see and experience first-hand is false. Alaska is different than the rest in many ways. You obviously haven’t done your research about this place. And if you have, it’s still possible to miss certain things.
“I suggest you try before saying that it is a cushy ride, ”
See above. Besides, I don’t think you understand our system/people as well as you think. I’ve known my share of people that refuse to get paid more just because they don’t want to lose State benefits. Again, first-hand knowledge trumps what you read. You can tell me your city sucks more than any, but if I talk to the nice folks at the Chamber of Commerce (or something similar), then I’m willing to bet all I’ll hear are nice things. I’d believe you more than them.
“Me neither!”
Dang, we’re both left out of the loop! It’s not because we’re ugly, right???
“And give up the high moral ground.”
I don’t claim to have the best morals or that I’ve been a saint. But I don’t believe in hurting people. Physically anyways.
“Oh, just because you were moaning so much.”
I don’t get it. Just because I’ll state something, it doesn’t mean I’m moaning, whining, or want compensation. Can’t I just mention something and have it be what it is? If I say that it took my scab over three months to fall off my toe, then that is all I’m saying. I’m not asking for you to hand me kleenex, or send me a get-well card or anything like that. Funny how lefties act that way. And btw, that scab part is true. Check out my pics on it if you want. Since you’re so smart, why would mention it?
“Look harder. The ‘Iran’ post. There’s prizes!”
I read each word. I see nothing about a quiz. There are two links on the second comment. Nothing that looks like a quiz.
This is the complete text from your post:
Did Iran this about the USA?
‘Hopefully the…leadership will take a different position than the one they’ve taken in the past, which is basically, who cares what the free world says, we’re going to — we’ll go our own way.’
Did the USA say this about Iran?
‘Human rights are being extensively violated…setting up secret prisons, abducting persons, trials and secret punishments without any regard to due process, extensive tappings of telephone conversations, intercepting private mail and frequent summons to police and security centers have become commonplace and prevalent.’
Answers to the comments section please…
—–
Nope. Nothing about a quiz.
June 25, 2008 at 2:34 am |
‘Very few things are perfect. It’s perfectly normal to have conflicting views.’
Indeed it is, you libertarian protectionist, you! Or are you a protectionist libertarian? Whatever, I guess what we have to do is prioritize. For instance, here in Australia the conservative party (The Liberal Party!) are in coalition with the National Party.
The Nationals are the party of the countryside, and so have socially conservative views, but fiscally are basically agrarian socialists – they are fighting at the moment to keep the ‘Single desk’ wheat sales structure. The larger conservative party, however, are rabid Friedmanite Free Trade™ globalizing privateers, so the Nationals must choose which is more important to them – their social values or their wallets. So far, they’ve gone with the former.
For myself, I try to my reconcile conflicting views as best I can. I think I’ve done a reasonable job, but feel free to point out any holes in my logic – that’s how I learn.
‘Not everybody is in it.’
So? We are. You are. China is. Who isn’t? 153 countries are members. What’s your point?
Sue me.
Oh ho! Defiant in your inconsistency!
‘You appear to have misunderstood me. Poor people will vote for the whichever pol will give them the most.’
Not at all. Witness the Redneck Republicans – working class people who vote against their interests. Like our Nationals (See above).
‘Democrats are good for robbing the rich and giving to the poor.’
‘Robbing’ is a tad emotive, no? It’s not robbery – it’s a fair and equitable distribution of resources. A lot of conservatives yearn for the good old days of the ‘50s when society was a lot
more stable and most people seemed to be able to make a reasonable living and feed a family with one job, but they always forget that the top tax rate was 90%. If the rich don’t get poorer your country will be buggered until they do.
‘Why work for what you can get for nothing? When I first moved up here with a friend of mine, we both got jobs in the summer. Winter came and he quit his and I kept mine. He made more money on unemployment and the other programs than I did working. How do you think that made me feel? If I didn’t have morals, I would’ve quit so I could have more money. That’s what the problem is! Making more money when you’re unemployed!’
If you are getting paid less than welfare then I suggest that your problem is less with welfare and more with the level of wages you got. Many workers qualify for welfare which means that, with wage levels that low, the taxpayer is not subsidizing the unemployed, it is are subsidizing the employer.
There should not be the situation where people that work hard can still not afford a house, of food, or whatever. Period. If that means ‘robbing’ the rich, then so be it. They won’t miss it. Since when was greed an attribute?
‘Maybe, but I’ve seen enough first-hand to know that it’s still true. You can’t tell me what I see and experience first-hand is false. Alaska is different than the rest in many ways. You obviously haven’t done your research about this place. And if you have, it’s still possible to miss certain things.’
Whoever said I was talking about Alaska? I was talking in very general terms, because the problem is not limited to Alaska,the USA, Australia – it is widespread across the world.
‘I’ve known my share of people that refuse to get paid more just because they don’t want to lose State benefits.’
I know the problem well. Poverty traps. Bracket creep. Again, maybe it’s because the tax burden is heaviest on the working and lower middle classes? And again, why are benefits for people with jobs even necessary? Because employers are not paying them enough.
‘Again, first-hand knowledge trumps what you read.’
Wrong. I’ve been around a bit meself, champ.
‘Dang, we’re both left out of the loop! It’s not because we’re ugly, right??? ‘
Um, I hate to break it to you but…
‘I don’t claim to have the best morals or that I’ve been a saint. But I don’t believe in hurting people. Physically anyways.’
We agree again! Does that make us a movement?
‘I don’t get it. Just because I’ll state something, it doesn’t mean I’m moaning, whining, or want compensation. Can’t I just mention something and have it be what it is? If I say that it took my scab over three months to fall off my toe, then that is all I’m saying. I’m not asking for you to hand me kleenex, or send me a get-well card or anything like that. Funny how lefties act that way. And btw, that scab part is true. Check out my pics on it if you want. Since you’re so smart, why would mention it?’
Settle down! I was just giving you a hard time for the hell of it. I jest, yes?
’Nope. Nothing about a quiz.’
Lett’s have a look.
‘Did Iran say this about the USA?
‘Did the USA say this about Iran?’
See those question marks? That‘s the quiz. Yes/No. Your answers please…
Cheers
Elroy
June 25, 2008 at 6:24 pm |
“Or are you a protectionist libertarian?”
I’d settle for ‘American’. ‘Alaskan’ can work too. Or ‘vet’.
“What’s your point?”
I thought it was obvious. You can’t follow the ‘rules’ when you deal with someone outside of it. Things change.
“Oh ho! Defiant in your inconsistency!”
No. That was my humor. Check the symbol to the right.
“‘Robbing’ is a tad emotive, no? It’s not robbery – it’s a fair and equitable distribution of resources.”
Yes, but it fits the bill. “fair and equitable” is debatable. Those that are taxed the most would most likely be the biggest complainers. Those that receive the most will probably not complain. If I recall correctly, there isn’t anything in our Constitution that states we are allowed to redistribute money. Sure, we do, but if you’re a strict Constitutionalist you’d say it’s illegal.
“If you are getting paid less than welfare then I suggest that your problem is less with welfare and more with the level of wages you got.”
Yup. I was in the South in an area with lots of retirees. Nobody wants to pay above minimum wage because of the supply/demand issue when it comes to labor. Lots of workers with retirement income willing to work for minimum wage to make a few extra bucks. It makes it difficult to support your family on peanuts. My wife was the ‘manager’ at a restaurant and all she got was ten cents over minimum wage. I even met someone that had been working at the same place for 9 years and was only making .65 over minimum wage. Sad, eh? I can thank good ol’ Bill Clinton for downsizing me.
“There should not be the situation where people that work hard can still not afford a house, of food, or whatever. Period. If that means ‘robbing’ the rich, then so be it. They won’t miss it. Since when was greed an attribute?”
First part- I agree. Robbing the rich is not a solution. Yes, they may miss it. The definition of ‘rich’ varies quite a bit. I might qualify on being ‘rich’. Depends on who you ask. I’m not sure what you mean by greed being an attribute. In general, greed is bad. There may be situations where it is beneficial. Just look at charity auctions, like the one J.K. Rowling had for her book. If I had Bill Gates’ money, I would’ve had that book. And the charity would’ve had much more money. I get something I want, the charity gets something they want. Win-win.
“Whoever said I was talking about Alaska? ”
Well, you didn’t say you were, but you didn’t say you weren’t. I try to use examples I’m most familiar with. It’s much better that way.
“Again, maybe it’s because the tax burden is heaviest on the working and lower middle classes?”
Possibly.
And again, why are benefits for people with jobs even necessary? Because employers are not paying them enough.”
To attract and retain the best people. Employers may not pay them enough, but a company with a large number of workers can get a better price for insurance and other benefits than a single person can. I like to look at it as a motivational factor. If you have an unskilled job that pays little with few benefits, and you see someone with a professional job with lots of benefits….
What should you do?
1. Complain that life is not fair? (It’s not, get over it.)
2. Demand that he be taxed more so you can have a better life. (Why is it owed to you?)
3. Work harder/get an education and get that job yourself.
I think it should be #3. Poverty sucks. Been there, got the t-shirt and had to sell it for food. I worked my arse off to get somewhere better. If I can do it with all my problems, then I’m sure most other people can do the same. It’s all about the motivation.
“Wrong. I’ve been around a bit meself, champ.”
Well sonny, I won’t tell you what you witness with your own eyes is wrong. If you tell me that old women with large purses almost always steal from restaurants by putting silverware or condiments into their purse, and that you see this with your own eyes, then who am I to say you are wrong. Your experiences are different than mine. We can say different things and still both be right.
“Um, I hate to break it to you but…”
Doh! Wait a sec, I haven’t seen your pic bucko….
“Does that make us a movement?”
I dunno, but I had one a few hours ago.
“Settle down!”
k’
“See those question marks?”
Ahh, questions and quizzes are two different animals. I was looking for those multiple choice thingys that we love so much over here.
June 29, 2008 at 8:41 pm |
‘I’d settle for ‘American’. ‘Alaskan’ can work too. Or ‘vet’.
A free-market libertarian protectionist nationalist? Well, that clears it up. Actually, you sound more like a mercantilist, and a confused one at that.
‘I thought it was obvious. You can’t follow the ‘rules’ when you deal with someone outside of it. Things change.’
Yeah, but we’re talking about commodities, outsourcing and the WTO. Everybody is in it.
‘No. That was my humor. Check the symbol to the right.’
Ho ho.
‘Yes, but it fits the bill.’
Not necessarily. One could look on taxes as an insurance policy if one wanted to. It’s all a matter of perception.
“fair and equitable” is debatable.’
Ok then, let’s debate it.
‘Those that are taxed the most would most likely be the biggest complainers. Those that receive the most will probably not complain.’
Not necessarily. Those that are taxed the most do complain, long and loud, but there are others who are not taxed the most who support the idea that the highest paid should be allowed to keep their money. Like the Redneck Republicans we know so well.
‘If I recall correctly, there isn’t anything in our Constitution that states we are allowed to redistribute money. Sure, we do, but if you’re a strict Constitutionalist you’d say it’s illegal.’
‘Promote the general welfare’ doesn’t do it for you?
‘Yup. I was in the South in an area with lots of retirees. Nobody wants to pay above minimum wage because of the supply/demand issue when it comes to labor. Lots of workers with retirement income willing to work for minimum wage to make a few extra bucks. It makes it difficult to support your family on peanuts. My wife was the ‘manager’ at a restaurant and all she got was ten cents over minimum wage. I even met someone that had been working at the same place for 9 years and was only making .65 over minimum wage. Sad, eh? I can thank good ol’ Bill Clinton for downsizing me.’
Your minimum wage is way too low. It’s quite simple. It hasn’t increased in ten years, and although it goes up next week to $6.55 per hour it still won’t be worth what it was in 1968, when it was bought $9.12 in 2005 dollars.
But when did Bill Clinton downsize you? Did you work for him? Where? In the White House? What did you do? What was he like?
‘First part- I agree.’
Good.
‘Robbing the rich is not a solution.’
Yes it is.
‘Yes, they may miss it.’
Good. If they miss it then it might teach them something, and if they don’t then hey didn’t need it and it’s a good job they had it taking off them.
‘The definition of ‘rich’ varies quite a bit. I might qualify on being ‘rich’. Depends on who you ask.’
The figure being bandied around is $250,000 p.a.
‘I’m not sure what you mean by greed being an attribute.’
I’m saying that it is SEEN as an attribute by some. Not me.
‘In general, greed is bad. There may be situations where it is beneficial. Just look at charity auctions, like the one J.K. Rowling had for her book. If I had Bill Gates’ money, I would’ve had that book. And the charity would’ve had much more money. I get something I want, the charity gets something they want. Win-win.’
But this is just optional tax for the rich. They can decide what charities they donate toand which the don’t – optional tax. My taxes get spent on the military – I don’t like that – or do they get spent on the unmarried mother’s pension? – I’m happy with that. But the point is, I don’t get to choose.
And charities, as wonderful as they are, can never get the job done because it’s too big, there is too much poverty and disadvantage everywhere, across your country, my country, the whole world. It’s systemic.
Here’s a parable I heard the other day:
A man is walking along the river bank when he sees a baby in the water. He jumps in and rescues the baby but then he sees another baby so he rescues that one too, and then another, and another, until he sees a bloke upstream throwing babies into the water.
What does the first man do? If he is a liberal he will demand that a government program be set up to rescue the baby, if he is a progressive he will attempt to stop the second man throwing the babies, and if he is a conservative he will feel good about saving one or two babies while fully supporting the right of the second man to throw as many babies in the river as the market will allow.
‘Well, you didn’t say you were, but you didn’t say you weren’t. I try to use examples I’m most familiar with. It’s much better that way.’
So do I. Sort of. But you assumed I was talking about Alaska. Strange.
‘Possibly’.
‘I’ll take that as a ‘Yes’.
‘To attract and retain the best people. Employers may not pay them enough, but a company with a large number of workers can get a better price for insurance and other benefits than a single person can. I like to look at it as a motivational factor. If you have an unskilled job that pays little with few benefits, and you see someone with a professional job with lots of benefits…’
You misunderstand me. I mean government benefits for people with jobs. Because employers are not paying them enough, some people who have full time jobs are on welfare and that must be wrong.
‘What should you do? ’
Fight the powers!
‘1. Complain that life is not fair? (It’s not, get over it.)’
It could be fairer. What’s wrong with trying to make it so?
‘ 2. Demand that he be taxed more so you can have a better life. (Why is it owed to you?)
Because I was born. Because I am. Because as a human being I believe that I have some unalienable rights, and that include, but are not restricted to, the right to shelter, sustenance, health and education. I am human. I live in a society. I am the society. The society is me. I reckon government should be responsible for the bottom two teirs of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, and that people should not die from the want of them.
‘ 3. Work harder/get an education and get that job yourself.’
Sure, but that option is not available to everyone. Education is fast becoming a get-what-you-pay-for proposition and social mobility in the USA is not what you think it is. Have you never wondered why it is called the American ‘dream’?
‘I think it should be #3. Poverty sucks. Been there, got the t-shirt and had to sell it for food. I worked my arse off to get somewhere better. If I can do it with all my problems, then I’m sure most other people can do the same. It’s all about the motivation.’
Well done. I did it to. However, I am not so naïve as to think that everyone else can do it too – if there are winners than there must, QED, be losers, and I don’t think that the losers should be left to die in the streets because they didn’t ‘try’ hard enough. There are a many good, hardworking and motivated people who never get anywhere, no matter hard they try, and they are growing in number.
‘Well sonny, I won’t tell you what you witness with your own eyes is wrong. If you tell me that old women with large purses almost always steal from restaurants by putting silverware or condiments into their purse, and that you see this with your own eyes, then who am I to say you are wrong. Your experiences are different than mine. We can say different things and still both be right.’
More or less. But just because I saw one old lady steal silverware, I would not necessarily assume that all old ladies do it.
Doh! Wait a sec, I haven’t seen your pic bucko….
Let’s Ask Elroy!™ ( letsaskelroy.blogspot.com )
I dunno, but I had one a few hours ago.
Moving right along…
k’
Thank you.
‘Ahh, questions and quizzes are two different animals. I was looking for those multiple choice thingys that we love so much over here.’
Two questions make a quiz in my book, buddy! And your results are in!
Cheers
Elroy
July 1, 2008 at 5:25 pm |
Various comments from Elroy:
Then I can only assume that you are not a strict constructionist .
Still good to know you are not one of those constructionist dinosaurs.
then you really are a protectionist par excellence!
I mean, you sound like a bit of a protectionist.
Are you sure you ain’t no de-mo-crat?
Not very libertarian of you.
You sure don’t think much like a libertarian
Indeed it is, you libertarian protectionist, you!
Or are you a protectionist libertarian?
A free-market libertarian protectionist nationalist? Well, that clears it up.
Actually, you sound more like a mercantilist, and a confused one at that.
———–
It appears that you’re trying to put me in a box. Forget about it. I don’t mind having a discussion with someone, but if I want to be psychoanalyzed then I’ll go see a shrink.
Internet rules:
#9- Will be implemented if you continue psychoanalyzing me.
#11- Currently implemented.
#27- Don’t make me use this one.
#31- Ditto.
#25- This one has gone on too long.
Cheerios.
July 6, 2008 at 4:09 pm |
I’m not trying to ‘put you in a box’ or psychoanalyze you, I’m merely trying, through some gentle ribbing, to pin you down to some sort of consistent position which, when discussing politics, is not an unreasonable quest. I suggest you lighten up and cop it on the chin.
We deal with ‘-ists’ and ‘-isms’ all the time. For my part, it looks like all the off-the-shelf ideologies have some fatal flaws in some regard, so what we need to do is construct a psot-modern reality that takes what works and what doesn’t, bearing in mind at least two crucial elements – one, that the economy serves us and that we don’t serve the economy, and that we must concentrate on what is most effective over what is most efficient.
And talking about putting people in boxes, what’s all this ‘Internet rules’ malarkey? I’ve never signed up for them, I’ve never even seen them, so quote the numbers all you like and threaten away until the cows return, but I have no idea what you are talking about. I don’t recognize them and I don’t see why I should be expected to be bound by them. Who wrote them? Who ratified them? Who made them law? Why wasn’t I asked? What’s that switch over there for?
I am reminded of the story of the missionary who went to convert the Eskimos. After having explained about God, Jesus, the resurrection and how unbelievers would be forever damned, an Eskimo chief said ‘If you hadn’t have told me about this, would I still go to hell?’ The missionary thought about this and, quite reasonably, came to the conclusion that it was an unknown unknown, that the Eskimo chief couldn’t go to hell for something he knew nothing about, to which the Chief replied ‘Then why did you tell me?’
Get over yourself, Frznagan ¬– what happened to be personal liberty? What happened individuality? How come arbitrary regulation is now OK? Since when did the rugged rough and tumble of the Interwebs become a police state?
Cheers
Elroy
July 6, 2008 at 11:01 pm |
“I’m merely trying, through some gentle ribbing, to pin you down to some sort of consistent position”
Why? Why does it matter? Besides, I feel that I’m consistent. I believe in rules and there are exceptions to rules. Does that confuse you?
“I suggest you lighten up and cop it on the chin.”
Considering your response to the internet rules, I’ll say the same about you.
“For my part, it looks like all the off-the-shelf ideologies have some fatal flaws in some regard”
Just about everything has pros and cons. Maximize pros and minimize cons.
“what we need to do is construct a psot-modern reality that takes what works and what doesn’t”
Whatever we agree on will be meaningless. Getting everybody on our bandwagon would be too time consuming.
“that the economy serves us and that we don’t serve the economy”
Hmm, interesting. Sounds like someone wants freebies. Yes, sit back and have the economy serve me. I don’t have to work. Nope. I’m too important.
“and that we must concentrate on what is most effective over what is most efficient. ”
Another either or situation, eh? I think it needs to be the best blend of the two.
“what’s all this ‘Internet rules’ malarkey?”
Don’t ask me, I didn’t make them.
“I’ve never signed up for them”
Neither did I. I’m willing to bet that you didn’t sign up for the rules in the country where you were born. When did they get you to sign the contract stating you will follow the rules? This may come as a shock to you, but you won’t find my signature on the Declaration of Independence. That’s right! I don’t have my signature on any of the important founding documents! But yet, I’m bound by them. Odd, eh? If you don’t like the rules, then change them or go elsewhere.
“but I have no idea what you are talking about. ”
Try that ‘Google’ thingy. If you can’t find it, then I’ll post them.
“I don’t recognize them and I don’t see why I should be expected to be bound by them.”
Words of a rebel. Sounds like someone can’t conform very well.
“Who wrote them? Who ratified them? Who made them law? ”
Don’t know*3. And it doesn’t matter. It is what it is.
“Why wasn’t I asked?”
You’re not important enough.
“What’s that switch over there for?”
It’s used to control the flow of electricity. You can close the switch and electricity will flow. If you open it, then it will stop flowing.
“Get over yourself, Frznagan”
I’d have to be full of myself before I get over myself. Therefore, I can’t do.
“what happened to be personal liberty?”
It’s here in the good U S of A! Why live in Down Blunder when you can live here!
“What happened individuality?
The Borg took it away. Get over it.
“How come arbitrary regulation is now OK?”
Arbitrary decision making made it so.
“Since when did the rugged rough and tumble of the Interwebs become a police state?”
It’s always been controlled. Haven’t you ever heard of the Great Firewall of China? What about Carnivore? Or the ultra-secret Brass Orb?
Anyhowz, my son is heading of to your country in a few hours. World Youth Day with the Pope. You are going to visit the Pope, right???
July 7, 2008 at 9:05 pm |
‘Why? Why does it matter?’
Sun Tzu, matey – know thine enemy. If I am going to argue politics with you, it helps me to know where you stand on some issues. That it what I’m trying to do. You appear, however, to be a little slippery…
‘Besides, I feel that I’m consistent.’
You do? OK, here’s what I think I have gathered so far. You are alright with the Supremes interpreting the constitution over time as problems arise, and that the constitution and the law are not static. However, I have a problem when you profess to be a libertarian, that is you manifestly reject the role of the state, in affairs of trade, but at the same time advocate for the state to protect certain activities and commodities, This, to me, is inconsistent. There is an intellectual disconnect. You can’t have it both ways and be credible.
‘I believe in rules and there are exceptions to rules. Does that confuse you?’
I’m not talking about rules – I’m talking about one’s personal political convictions. Does that confuse you?
‘Considering your response to the internet rules, I’ll say the same about you.’
Fair enough. Consider it copped.
‘Just about everything has pros and cons. Maximize pros and minimize cons.’
Aha! But truth is relative! Just as one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter, one man’s pro is another man’s con, so what we must do is work out, empirically, what works and what doesn’t.
‘Whatever we agree on will be meaningless.
What a defeatist attitude! We could be on the cusp of a breakthrough of a bi-partisan breakthrough, a ‘Fourth way’! How do you think philosophies are synthesized? By discussion and debate!
‘Getting everybody on our bandwagon would be too time consuming.’
Whoever said we could? My challenge is to change the world one mind at a time.
‘Hmm, interesting. Sounds like someone wants freebies. Yes, sit back and have the economy serve me. I don’t have to work. Nope. I’m too important.’
Interesting reaction, the usual conservative fear of someone getting something for nothing; however, you seem to be completely ignoring or not understanding the concept. What I am saying is that the economy is a construct, a human invention. It is not an innate and inherent function of nature, it is something that we, humans, can and therefore should control. Work, although you might hate or not be able to admit it, is also a construct, especially in the manner it has been organized since the industrial revolution.
Therefore the economy should be organized in a manner that does not inflict hardship and misery on humankind. This is the only moral imperative – work as a morally desirable endeavor is also a construct invented by the early Protestants as a way to rationalize their exploitative ways. It is not the way things have to be.
“and that we must concentrate on what is most effective over what is most efficient. ”
‘Another either or situation, eh? ‘
Not at all. I am merely suggesting that, as a rule of thumb, something that is effective should not be rejected because it is not efficient, that efficiency per se should not be the finally arbiter of behavior. It’s quite simple.
‘I think it needs to be the best blend of the two.’
OK, so in what cases should efficiency trump effectiveness?
‘Don’t ask me, I didn’t make them.’
No, but you posted them, and so therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that you endorse them.
‘Neither did I. I’m willing to bet that you didn’t sign up for the rules in the country where you were born. When did they get you to sign the contract stating you will follow the rules? This may come as a shock to you, but you won’t find my signature on the Declaration of Independence. That’s right! I don’t have my signature on any of the important founding documents! But yet, I’m bound by them. Odd, eh?’
The rule of law draws its legitimacy from the state which is drawn, in turn, from the consent of the people. From where do the ‘Laws of the Internet’ draw theirs?
‘If you don’t like the rules, then change them or go elsewhere.’
I’m going to go with the former. I’m an agent of change! Challenge accepted!
‘Try that ‘Google’ thingy. If you can’t find it, then I’ll post them.’
Google, huh? Radical stuff. OK, here goes…nope, can’t see ‘em.
‘Words of a rebel. Sounds like someone can’t conform very well.’
I’m a crazy young kid that’s living for the now! I’m a maverick baby, I live by my own rules!
What am I rebelling against? Whaddaya got?
I thought rugged nonconformity was what you guys are all about! I thought I was supposed to be a brainwashed drone! What gives?
‘Don’t know*3. And it doesn’t matter. It is what it is.’
And it has no legitimacy unless we agree to confer legitimacy upon it. Which I don’t.
‘You’re not important enough.’
Not to you, maybe…
‘It’s used to control the flow of electricity. You can close the switch and electricity will flow. If you open it, then it will stop flowing.’
No no no, not THAT switch! The other one!
‘I’d have to be full of myself before I get over myself. Therefore, I can’t do.’
Yeah, I know how it feels…
‘It’s here in the good U S of A!
It is? How’s that PATRIOT Act going? Department of Homeland Security? Domestic warrantless wiretaps? Read these:
http://letsaskelroy.blogspot.com/2007/05/ejected-neglected-and-unelected-blair.html
http://letsaskelroy.blogspot.com/2007/10/fascist-watch-one-more-minute-to.html
‘Why live in Down Blunder when you can live here!’
No green card. Oh, and no desire. Why live there when you can live here? It’s nice, like an overheated Canada, a particularly dry blend of you and our shared erstwhile colonial overlords.
‘The Borg took it away. Get over it.’
Who is the Borg? And why did he take it? When?
‘Arbitrary decision making made it so.’
Power with legitimacy from the people is fascism.
‘It’s always been controlled. Haven’t you ever heard of the Great Firewall of China? What about
Carnivore? Or the ultra-secret Brass Orb?’
Golden Shield I know about, but Carnivore and Brass Orb? Where’s that Google thingy? OK, here goes….Hmmm. Carnivore appears to be one of Clinton’s (Clinton, BTW, was one of best
Republican Presidents Democrats ever elected), but I see that Bushco have taken its abuse to new heights, but Brass Orb? Please, tell me more…
‘Anyhowz, my son is heading of to your country in a few hours.’
Oh, good, lucky him, I hope he has fun. We look forward to welcoming him to the Socialist People’s Democratic Republic of Australistan. Hope he doesn’t get sick, though – we have socialized medicine, which means that the streets are littered with the rotting corpses of he dead and dying citizens unable to access hospitals, and I hope he comes armed as, according to the NRA, gun crime has gone up 300% since the gun laws were tightened back in ’96. Personally, I don’t go to the shops now without my trusted Howizter mounted on the Australistan Bushmaster MRAP which we all drive these days.
Or maybe he can see how a democracy is supposed to function…
‘World Youth Day with the Pope.’
Oh dear. WYD. Yes, that’s not awfully popular down here at the moment, something to do with it shutting down swathes of the Sydney CBD and that we are not, get this, allowed to wear T-Shirts that might upset the delicate sensibilities of your offspring and his buddies. What was I saying about a functioning democracy?
Also in question is the colossal amount of taxpayers money this is costing us, being a secular state with supposed separation of powers. Would the State and Federal governments cough for World Muslim Youth Day? World Atheist Youth Day? Why isn’t the Vatican paying for whole lot? And shouldn’t you be philosophically in conflict with a state-funded junket such as this? I mean, surely this is socialism!
And with the Catholic Church’s notorious reputation for dodgy priests and their predilection for the young ‘uns, is a Youth Day an entirely appropriate event for them to be staging?
‘You are going to visit the Pope, right???’
Umm, how to put this? No. I saw the last one in Sydney by accident one time and remain, to this day, unmoved. Anyhoo, seen one pope, seen them all…
Cheers
Elroy
July 8, 2008 at 2:51 pm |
ERRATUM: For ‘Power with legitimacy from the people is fascism’, read ‘Power without legitimacy from the people is fascism.’ Oops!
Cheers
Elroy
July 8, 2008 at 7:09 pm |
“know thine enemy.”
If I’m your enemy then stop posting here. Do not come back. I have no use for enemies here.
“If I am going to argue politics with you, it helps me to know where you stand on some issues. ”
Is that all you want to do is ‘argue’. Again, arguing for arguments sake is stupid. If that’s what you want, go elsewhere.
“That it what I’m trying to do. You appear, however, to be a little slippery…”
Ok, thanks.
“My challenge is to change the world one mind at a time.”
It appears that you only wish to change the mind of others, not your own. A bit egotistic, eh?
“No, but you posted them, and so therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that you endorse them.”
Sorry, wrongo. I post about Obama a lot and I DON’T endorse him. Stating another persons/groups rules does not mean I endorse it. If I state Mormons don’t drink, then am I saying I don’t drink? Nope. Or that you shouldn’t drink?Nope. Or that it is a good rule to have? Nope. A fact is just that, a fact. Live with it.
“From where do the ‘Laws of the Internet’ draw theirs?”
Actually, the ‘internet rules’ was just a joke. If you did your research on it you’d find that out and get a good laugh on it! LOL! Too funny. Don’t take life too serious, have some fun once in a while! You sure got your knickers in a twist over a joke.
“Google, huh? Radical stuff. OK, here goes…nope, can’t see ‘em.”
You didn’t look hard enough. Took about 10 seconds and here is your link:
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Rules_Of_The_Internet
“I’m a maverick baby, I live by my own rules!”
A maverick ehi? Guess you’d vote for McCain then??
“thought I was supposed to be a brainwashed drone! ”
Shh. I’m not supposed to tell you, but you already are.
“No no no, not THAT switch! The other one! ”
Whew! A sense of humor! I had just about lost hope* in you. Glad you changed*.
*Hope and Change are registered trademarks of ObamaGod.
“How’s that PATRIOT Act going? Department of Homeland Security? Domestic warrantless wiretaps?”
It’s great! Especially since Obama supports* them!
*Past and future tense applies. He will like them if he becomes President. Wait and see.
“Why live there when you can live here?”
I should apologize for disparaging your country. I just couldn’t resist the wordplay. I’m sure it’s a real nice country and a great place to live.
“Who is the Borg? And why did he take it? When?”
You’re kidding, right?
“but Brass Orb? Please, tell me more… ”
SHHHH! We’re not to discuss this any further. Carnivore will catch it.
“We look forward to welcoming him to the Socialist People’s Democratic Republic of Australistan.”
Funny.
“we have socialized medicine, which means that the streets are littered with the rotting corpses of he dead and dying citizens unable to access hospitals,”
Oh, you’re just like the rest then. Somehow I thought you’d be different.
“Personally, I don’t go to the shops now without my trusted Howizter mounted on the Australistan Bushmaster MRAP which we all drive these days.”
Want. Wait…. NEED!
“and that we are not, get this, allowed to wear T-Shirts that might upset the delicate sensibilities of your offspring and his buddies. What was I saying about a functioning democracy?”
Et tu Elroy?
“And shouldn’t you be philosophically in conflict with a state-funded junket such as this? ”
It’s not my state. But look at it this way, Christians are trying to ’save’ you, not kill you. We wish to live in peace but some people just have nothing better to do then find ways to kill us. Odd. I would think that if we were that bad and Allah was that powerful, then he’d just kill us off.
“Anyhoo, seen one pope, seen them all…”
Maybe, but I like the last one much better.
July 9, 2008 at 5:47 pm |
‘If I’m your enemy then stop posting here. Do not come back. I have no use for enemies here.’
Ah, c’mon! I was just paraphrasing Sun Tzu in the Art Of War. The full quote is ‘So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will fight without danger in battles.If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose. If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.’
That’s all. I don’t consider you an enemy, I consider you to be a sparring partner, someone with whom I can talk about the issues of the day – no animosity here. Okey-dokey?
‘Is that all you want to do is ‘argue’. Again, arguing for arguments sake is stupid. If that’s what you want, go elsewhere.
OK, try ‘dicsuss’ or ‘debate’. I’m not doing this for the sake of doing it – I genuinely enjoy the discourse and, as you run a political blog, I thought you did too.
‘Ok, thanks.’
Um, it wasn’t a compliment…
‘It appears that you only wish to change the mind of others, not your own. A bit egotistic, eh?’
Maybe. Or maybe that was MY little joke. I’m quite prepared to have my mind changed if the information is compelling enough – as John Maynard Keynes once said ‘When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?’ – but are you? As for ego, I would think a healthy ego is a prerequisite for people like us who like to broadcast our opinions on the interwebs to all comers.
‘Sorry, wrongo. I post about Obama a lot and I DON’T endorse him. Stating another persons/groups rules does not mean I endorse it. If I state Mormons don’t drink, then am I saying I don’t drink? Nope. Or that you shouldn’t drink?Nope. Or that it is a good rule to have?
Nope. A fact is just that, a fact. Live with it.’
Sorry, wrongo, yourself. I know you don’t endorse Obama because you say so, you clarify and qualify your reasons for posting about him, but you made no such comments about the ‘rules’. In fact, you didn’t even say what the rules are, just your interpretation of them, which leads me to not unreasonably conclude that you concurred with them and that I did too.
‘Actually, the ‘internet rules’ was just a joke. If you did your research on it you’d find that out and get a good laugh on it! LOL! Too funny. Don’t take life too serious, have some fun once in a while! You sure got your knickers in a twist over a joke.’
Oh, I don’t take anything too seriously, believe me – if I did, I would be in tears all m waking hours.
‘You didn’t look hard enough. Took about 10 seconds and here is your link:’
There were 4,123,123 links to ‘Rules of the internet’, so thanks for clearing that up.
‘A maverick ehi? Guess you’d vote for McCain then?? ‘
McCain is a maverick? He might be to you, but to me is just another rich and privileged member of the ruling elite. Why do y’all always vote for these guys?
‘Shh. I’m not supposed to tell you, but you already are.’
While you are…? This gets us nowhere. I’m not a drone and neither are you. Uh oh. My batteries are running down…
‘Whew! A sense of humor! I had just about lost hope* in you. Glad you changed*.
Changed? Don’t you worry, I laugh long and loud every day.
*Hope and Change are registered trademarks of ObamaGod.’
In that case, McCain is in breach of copyright with his ‘Change you deserve’ slogan. Actually, he is in breach of copyright because ‘Change you deserve’ is used to market an anti-depressant. Really, you can’t make this stuff up…
And how about ‘A leader we can believe in’? I know imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but c’mon…
‘It’s great!’
Free? Brave? Not any more.
.
‘Especially since Obama supports* them!’’
So? I don’t. o my god! What will Obama say? Quick, where’s my daddy? Pleeeze, protect me!
*Past and future tense applies. He will like them if he becomes President. Wait and see.’
OK, We’ll wait and see. Good idea.
‘’I should apologize for disparaging your country. I just couldn’t resist the wordplay. I’m sure
it’s a real nice country and a great place to live.’
That’s OK. It’s good to know that you recognize that the USA is not necessarily the greatest of all possible nations in which to dwell. Even if you are, geographically speaking, in Canada.
‘You’re kidding, right?’
No. Who is the Borg? And why did he take it? When?
‘SHHHH! We’re not to discuss this any further. Carnivore will catch it.’
Uh oh! Land of the which? Home of the who? How’s that Constitution going?
‘Funny.’
If only it wasn’t a joke.
‘Oh, you’re just like the rest then. Somehow I thought you’d be different.’
What? Um, the country where the streets are littered with the rotting corpses of dead and dying citizens unable to access hospitals is, er, yours. Here in the SPDRA with the accursed socialized medicine, people are treated in world-class hospitals at no cost. Really, I don’t know why we put up with it….
‘Want. Wait…. NEED! ‘
Yeah, you could’ve had ‘em too. They are for sale, y’know. Actually, the pentagon nearly bought some from us a couple of years ago, but they didn’t because…because..ah, you’d better ask them. The Dutch bought ‘em and love ‘em. We’ve had ‘em for years, and the South Africans, who invented them have had ‘em for longer. Where have you guys been? I mean, it’s not as if you didn’t know you were going into Iraq a good couple of ears before you did.
‘Et tu Elroy?’
Nah, not me. Wrong city. Otherwise…
‘It’s not my state.’
Nor mine. But Russia was not your country, yet the USA got mighty upset with them for behaving as they wanted to. Likewise the Koreans, the Vietnamese, the Indonesians, the Chileans etc etc.
‘But look at it this way, Christians are trying to ’save’ you, not kill you. We wish to live in peace but some people just have nothing better to do then find ways to kill us.’
Probably something to do with you tring to kill them.
‘Odd. I would think that if we were that bad and Allah was that powerful, then he’d just kill us off.’
And if they were that bad and God was so powerful then he’d just kill them off. Or maybe you’re both wrong.
‘Maybe, but I like the last one much better’
I liked the one before him. Doesn’t look like anyone else did, though.
Cheers
Elroy
July 9, 2008 at 11:00 pm |
“no animosity here. Okey-dokey?
Ok. Sounds fine. But I’m not looking for a sparring partner. It would be nice to have someone on the left explain some things. But most of the time, it’s distract and call names. Not just here, other places as well. You’ve seen Liberaldude at Jenn’s site, right? He’ll post an insult, laugh and leave. How dare a lefty actually discuss the subject of a post!
“I thought you did too.”
I do. But I dislike the assumptions (yes, I’m guilty too) and words being put in my mouth.
“I would think a healthy ego is a prerequisite… ”
Ok, point taken. I don’t look at myself with an ego thing, mostly I try to point out a different perspective or just put my two cents in on a subject. As you may see, I don’t jump out and post everything that pisses me off. If I think something will be over-saturated and I can’t add to it then I’ll skip it. I don’t follow the herd.
“There were 4,123,123 links to ‘Rules of the internet’, so thanks for clearing that up.”
Sure, but the first one had all the information. Don’t make things more complicated than they are!
“Why do y’all always vote for these guys?”
Again, another assumption. I don’t. But a good reason could be this- people hire successful people to run their companies because it’s a good indicator that they will be successful. I’d rather vote for a successful business person for President than someone who’s never had to balance the books or make tough decisions. Community Organizer? LOL!
“Really, you can’t make this stuff up…”
Sure you can. Ever watch those movies that come out of Hollywood?
“Free? Brave? Not any more.”
Your opinion. But since you don’t live here…
“Even if you are, geographically speaking, in Canada.”
Really? This used to be owned by Russia.
“No. Who is the Borg?”
You serious? Check out Star Trek, The Next Generation. Interesting stuff, you’ll like it.
“Uh oh! Land of the which? Home of the who? How’s that Constitution going?”
Great, except for those activist judges. This was humor. I thought it was so obvious that you’d catch it but it looks like I’m wrong.
“and dying citizens unable to access hospitals is, er, yours. ”
Really? Is that why Canada sends it’s people over here for care? To die in our streets. That doesn’t sound very caring of them.
“Probably something to do with you tring to kill them.”
Nope, not trying to kill anyone. Our country doesn’t want to kill anyone. ‘cept maybe those terrorist trying to kill us. Save your rant on this, I’ve heard it before.
July 10, 2008 at 4:34 pm |
‘Ok. Sounds fine. But I’m not looking for a sparring partner.’
Oh. Sorry. It’s just that, y’know, the comments section, your presence on ScrewLiberals, it looked like you wanted to engage in a frank and thorough exchange of views.
‘It would be nice to have someone on the left explain some things.’
Then I’m your guy! What would you like to know?
And BTW, I always thought it would be nice to have someone on the right to explain some things, so it looks like we could be in business, to spar, if you will.
‘But most of the time, it’s distract and call names. Not just here, other places as well. You’ve seen Liberaldude at Jenn’s site, right? He’ll post an insult, laugh and leave. How dare a lefty actually discuss the subject of a post!’
Again, you are throwing me in with the herd. I’m like Mr Pitts in this regard; I have the good sense and taste to retain the high moral ground and not descend the level of the Republicans beasties on Jenn’s site. I have, however, retired from there because it was all too infantile – at least you are civil and attempt to mount a cogent rebuttal.
Again, I will defend the broad philosophies of the left but I won’t go into bat for individual nutbags – I guess that ‘all lefties flock together’ meme of yours ain’t gonna fly. I might address you concerning the wider conservative agenda, but I do not ask you to answer for the sins of Witness, Darwin or Radical Redneck, so please extend me the same courtesy. There are fruitcakes on both sides of the divide, so lets not worry ourselves too greatly about them.
‘I do. But I dislike the assumptions (yes, I’m guilty too) and words being put in my mouth.
Some things are reasonable to assume, as you agree. If you feel I put words in your mouth, I apologize.
‘Ok, point taken. I don’t look at myself with an ego thing, mostly I try to point out a different perspective or just put my two cents in on a subject. As you may see, I don’t jump out and post everything that pisses me off. If I think something will be over-saturated and I can’t add to it then I’ll skip it. I don’t follow the herd.’
Hot dang! I feel exactly the same way about…me.
‘Sure, but the first one had all the information. Don’t make things more complicated than they are!’
Aha1 I picked the second, and third, and fourth and…I don’t follow the herd.
‘Again, another assumption. I don’t.’
You don’t? but you said before you did!
‘But a good reason could be this- people hire successful people to run their companies because
it’s a good indicator that they will be successful. I’d rather vote for a successful business person for President than someone who’s never had to balance the books or make tough decisions. Community Organizer? LOL!’
No, that would be a bad reason. Countries aren’t businesses, and its only since they were starting to be run as if the were that they have gone down the gurgler. For instance, a boss can, for better or worse, sack workers that they no longer need or want, but that option isn’t available to the president. He can’t deport them and he can’t shoot them, so he just chucks them on the scrap heap and so, naturally, social injustice and unrest ensues.
Running a country as a business is s sure fire way to create disaster, but at least you could have employed one who was actually successful; Bush’s business model was based on massive public subsidies, insider trading and being bailed out by the Saudis, so no change there, but not the guy one would want in charge of the till.
Community organizers would make much better Presidents because they understand that a successful society cannot be operated from a purely economic standpoint, that there are many, many, non-economic factors and people to be catered for, factors and people that maybe not, in the strictest economic sense, be rational but are with us anyway wether we like it or not and which must be accommodated if a country is to function properly.
‘Sure you can. Ever watch those movies that come out of Hollywood?’
No, y‘see, the funny thing about fiction is that it has to have a basis in fact – it has to be credible. If you wrote a plotline that had an aging presidential candidate running for a massively unpopular and discredited party steal their election from an ad for anti-depressants, you’d be waiting tables.
‘Your opinion. But since you don’t live here…’
And if the PATRIOT Act is anything to go by, I thank my stars for that. But I don’t have to live there to know that it is fundamentally undemocratic – I can read. Don’t start with the ‘You don’t live here’ stuff, it insults both our intelligence.
‘Really? This used to be owned by Russia.’
It looks like it should be in Canada. If you have to drive 500 miles across Canada from the rest of the US to get there, or take a boat from Russia to get there, maybe it should be in Canada.
‘You serious? Check out Star Trek, The Next Generation. Interesting stuff, you’ll like it.’
Uh oh! Trekkie alert! My phaser is on ‘stun’ .
‘Great, except for those activist judges. This was humor. I thought it was so obvious that you’d catch it but it looks like I’m wrong.’
Give me a chance! Of course I get it – you are calling Scalia, Roberts and and Thomas ‘activist’. Hilarious. LOL. Who said yanks don’t understand irony?
‘Really? Is that why Canada sends it’s people over here for care? To die in our streets. That doesn’t sound very caring of them.’
Shouldn’t that be ‘up here’ or ‘down there’? Anyhoo, maybe some cashed Canuks do venture over a border in order to blow the house on a new hip, but the Yanks do take cynical advantage of Canada’s cheap drugs.
But I think if you did a census of those dying in the streets I don’t think you will find many of the poorer ones will have wandered up, or down, from Canadia for the privilege. Nope, the odds are that they are the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse, the homeless, the tempest-tossed that once believed that America was their land.
US health care is one of those instances where I find holes in the logic, errors in fact and in deduction, baseless assumption and misinformation, commonsense being blinded by ideology and superstition overriding reason. Canada and Australia both have a higher life expectancy than the US, a lower infant mortality rate, more doctors and nurse per capita while spending nearly half as much on it than the US. Oh, and neither have people dying for want of it, or have I/6 of the community unable to access it, or people held hostage by employers for need of it, or people going bankrupt for having used it.
If health care isn’t a basic human right, what is?
‘Nope, not trying to kill anyone. Our country doesn’t want to kill anyone. ‘cept maybe those terrorist trying to kill us. Save your rant on this, I’ve heard it before.’
Then maybe you need to hear it again. In Iraq, people who are not terrorists, insurgents, Al-queda operatives, the boogy-man, commies or any other designated enemy of the state die everyday. Hundreds of thousands have died already, and not all at the hands of each other. There are over 4 million – let’s say that again – 4 million refugees either externally or internally displaced. Again, not all of these people want to kill you. Well, they didn’t want to kill you ¬ now I’m not so sure.
Live long and prosper! (Starship Enterprise now leaving conservative constellation at warp factor 16 heading for Planet Sane)
Elroy
July 10, 2008 at 7:44 pm |
“it looked like you wanted to engage in a frank and thorough exchange of views. ”
Sparring and talking about things are different.
“What would you like to know? ”
Ahh, a long list. One thing at a time.
“at least you are civil and attempt to mount a cogent rebuttal.”
Keep that up and you’ll ruin my street cred.
“There are fruitcakes on both sides of the divide, ”
Too many too. Waaaaaay too many!
“I feel exactly the same way about…me.”
Uh oh. My polar twin.
“You don’t? but you said before you did!”
I did before I didn’t. Where have I heard that before? The key word was ‘always’.
“For instance, a boss can, for better or worse, sack workers that they no longer need or want, but that option isn’t available to the president”
Wrong! Remember the 93 US Attorney’s that Clinton fired? And the flack when Bush did the same thing?
“He can’t deport them and he can’t shoot them”
I wouldn’t be money on that! Check this out!:http://www.newsfollowup.com/bushfortune.htm
“Community organizers would make much better Presidents because they understand ”
Understanding and doing are two different things.
“No, y‘see, the funny thing about fiction is that it has to have a basis in fact – it has to be credible.”
Not really, but it does help. Lots of sci-fi with bogus facts!
“Don’t start with the ‘You don’t live here’ stuff, it insults both our intelligence.”
I was trying to state that you’re not living under it so you don’t know exactly how it is. If reading about something gives you all that you need to know, then you’ll save lots of money- because you won’t have to go to Hawaii to see how great it is, you just have to read about it. No need to visit the Great Barrier Reef, just pick up a book and that’s everything! Reading is fine, but I prefer seeing/experiencing things to get the full effect.
“It looks like it should be in Canada.”
Nah, they should be in us. We protect them, and import oodles of stuff to them.
“Uh oh! Trekkie alert! My phaser is on ‘stun’ ”
Great. My Nerdar is going off.
“I get it – you are calling Scalia, Roberts and and Thomas ‘activist’. Hilarious. LOL”
I was referring to the lower courts.
“Anyhoo, maybe some cashed Canuks do venture over a border in order to blow the house on a new hip,”
Sounds like you’re minimizing again. Check this out: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,300939,00.html And besides, I don’t see people dying in the streets here. The emergency rooms cannot turn someone away just because they can’t pay. Anybody can go there for care if they want. Therefore, there is no reason to die on the streets.
“but the Yanks do take cynical advantage of Canada’s cheap drugs.”
Saving money is evil now. Thanks for clarifying that up. Lots of evil people in the world then.
“Canada and Australia both have a higher life expectancy than the US,”
I don’t think the health care is a big factor in that. I’d say our gang violence does a number on that statistic. Add in automobile fatalities, cancer….
“or people going bankrupt for having used it.”
I know someone (used to live with us for a bit) that refuses to work and gets treated for her problems. Some of the bills come here, but as far as I can tell, she doesn’t pay them. Makes no effort. Expects others to take care of her. You must be proud of her.
“If health care isn’t a basic human right, what is?”
This is a long discussion that I’ll save for later. Should my ‘rights’ cost other people money? If I felt that having a computer is a ‘basic human right’, then does that mean my government should buy me one? Who determines what it is?
“In Iraq, people who are not terrorists, insurgents, Al-queda operatives, the boogy-man, commies or any other designated enemy of the state die everyday.”
My heart bleeds for them. I don’t care if Al-queda dies. Or the boogy-man. Innocent people, sure. But they can stop fighting and people will stop dying. Simple! If you haven’t noticed, not all deaths are aimed at us, or because we do something. They’re killing each other too. Just like here in this country. I can’t stop them either.
“(Starship Enterprise now leaving conservative constellation at warp factor 16 heading for Planet Sane) ”
Oh, a round-trip?
July 14, 2008 at 2:39 pm |
‘Sparring and talking about things are different.’
If Bill Gates hadn’t failed to figure out how to make physical contact over the Interwebs, then why you I oughta…
Verbal sparring. It’s a metaphor. We are metaphoriacally sparring. Or what about jousting?
How, in you opinion, are sparring and ‘talking about things’ different?
‘Ahh, a long list. One thing at a time.’
C’mon, then, give us one thing. Ask away!
‘Keep that up and you’ll ruin my street cred.’
I shall post on ScrewLiberals that you have failed to call me a dickwad libtard and lo! they shall be less than impressed. Witness might come and give a dose of his/her ‘logic’ while most amusing is at time worrisome, especially as he/she has a gig at the Pentagon.
‘Too many too. Waaaaaay too many!’
But not us, huh?
‘Uh oh. My polar twin.’
Indeed. There is but one island state between me and the Antarctic.
‘I did before I didn’t. Where have I heard that before?’
John McCain.
The key word was ‘always’.
So you have voted Democrat? There’s hope for you yet!
‘Wrong! Remember the 93 US Attorney’s that Clinton fired? And the flack when Bush did the same thing?’
Woah! Way to miss the point, big guy! I was talking bout running the country as a business, not the government, although running the government as a business is just as bad, Care to readjust your statement in that context?
And, dear Frgnagan, did you miss the memo about the 93 US attorneys? Sounds like you were too busy listening to Mark Levin to notice it, but what it said was this – it is perfectly normal for a president to clear out the attorneys at the start of a presidency, but not in the middle of one, and not because the attorneys refused to make cases based on purely partisan lines, and not when they are your guys investigating your guys, and not when it all so underhand and covered up.
“He can’t deport them and he can’t shoot them”
Ok, he CAN shoot them. But I was thinking more of the great unwashed in general than anyone to whom he bears personal animosity…oh…hang on… that IS the great unwashed in general.
Good link, by the way – I shall enjoy its nuttiness at my leisure. Bush 41 shot JFK? There’s something for everyone there!
” Understanding and doing are two different things.
Community organizers organize, therefore he is doing. And understanding.
‘Not really, but it does help. Lots of sci-fi with bogus facts!’
Depends on the fiction. However, I thought the point of sci-fi was that you could make up as much stuff as you felt like, but that you think that sci-fi need to have a grounding in fact rather proves my point.
‘I was trying to state that you’re not living under it so you don’t know exactly how it is. If reading about something gives you all that you need to know, then you’ll save lots of money- because you won’t have to go to Hawaii to see how great it is, you just have to read about it. No need to visit the Great Barrier Reef, just pick up a book and that’s everything! Reading is fine, but I prefer seeing/experiencing things to get the full effect.’
The Great Barrier Reef and Hawaii are poly-sensual destinations – reading about them is not enough. The PATRIOT Act is not. I can read about it and its ramifications, can’t I? I can read about all the other stuff. I can ask you, but all you can say its ‘It’s great!’ Is that all you care for your freedoms?
‘Nah, they should be in us. We protect them,’
Who from?
‘and import oodles of stuff to them.’
No, you export oodles of stuff to them. And you should be grateful; they are your biggest customer. But does this mean you a fan the Mexico/USA/Canada trading bloc thang?
‘Great. My Nerdar is going off.’
My Nerdar has gone berserk.. But watch I don’t blow up your Cool-0-Meter.
‘I was referring to the lower courts.’
But with Scalia, Roberts and Thomas on the Supreme Court, what do the lower courts matter?
‘Sounds like you’re minimizing again. Check this out:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,300939,00.html And besides, I don’t see people dying in the streets here. The emergency rooms cannot turn someone away just because they can’t pay. Anybody can go there for care if they want. Therefore, there is no reason to die on the streets.’
I’m not minimizing anything. This sounds like a typical failure of a conservative government to invest in public infrastructure. This is what is known as ‘Starve the breast’; run pubic services down and then say ‘See? Public whatever doesn’t work!’
And the ‘emergency room’ argument doesn’t wash, either. By the time you’ve gotten to the ER, it’s too late. Prevention, as we all know, is better than cure, Preventative medicine is by far and away the best, cheapest, most practical and effective way of managing healthcare but not, unfortunately, for the poor. No, for their sins the poor must wait until the are close to death before crawling through the door of the warzone that is the public hospital ER room. Make no mistake, US health policy kills.
‘Saving money is evil now. Thanks for clarifying that up. Lots of evil people in the world then.’
Steady on. What I’m saying is that Americans who resist any kind of social medicine model are happy to take advantage of Canada’s. Why should Canada’s taxpayers subsidize selfish Americans?
‘I don’t think the health care is a big factor in that. I’d say our gang violence does a number on that statistic. Add in automobile fatalities, cancer….’
You don’t, huh? That would all depend. Australia (8.8) has fewer road deaths per head per capita than Alaska (14.62) but more than New Jersey (8.65) while in Wyoming they can obviously not drive at all, managing three times the rate of Italy! (11.7 – 33.00).
I would have thought it would take some serious wholesale slaughter on the streets of the US to have gang warfare effect the life expectancy figures, but if it does then what does that say about the society y’all have created? Nothing good.
‘I know someone (used to live with us for a bit) that refuses to work and gets treated for her problems. Some of the bills come here, but as far as I can tell, she doesn’t pay them. Makes no effort. Expects others to take care of her. You must be proud of her.’
She should never have been placed in that position in the first place. And it doesn’t mean that she is getting way with it; it will effect her credit rating and they will catch up with her one day. But how can I comment if I don’t know the circumstances? How big is the bill? What was done? How old is she? What is her income? And just because you know one person that has dodged the bills, that does not mean that everybody s doing it. They’re not. They can’t. Still, as it suits your agenda for them to doing so, you are happy to believe it. How convenient.
As for cancer, how is this not connected to health care? More poor people die of cancer than rich because they cannot access early detection and diagnosis. Dur!
‘This is a long discussion that I’ll save for later.’
Oh, good. When?
‘Should my ‘rights’ cost other people money? ‘
Yes. And their rights should cost you money.
‘If I felt that having a computer is a ‘basic human right’, then does that mean my government should buy me one?’ Who determines what it is?’
Well, maybe having a computer is not a human right as such, but it is a good question. My threshold is obviously higher (or lower, depending on one’s perspective) than yours, but I woud go so far as to that the bottom two rungs of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs – breathing, drinking, eating, excretion, personal security from crime, financial security, health and well-being, safety net against accidents/illness and the adverse impacts thereof – would be a good place to start the discussion, although I’m going to throw education from the third rung in as well.
“In Iraq, people who are not terrorists, insurgents, Al-queda operatives, the boogy-man, commies or any other designated enemy of the state die everyday.”
‘My heart bleeds for them. I don’t care if Al-queda dies. Or the boogy-man. Innocent people, sure. But they can stop fighting and people will stop dying. Simple! If you haven’t noticed, not all deaths are aimed at us, or because we do something. They’re killing each other too. Just like here in this country. I can’t stop them either’
It is foolish, if not naive, to think that the only killing going on in Iraq is Iraqi on Iraqi. If there is one simple truth we know about the Iraq situation, that is it is not simple. Iraq is an occupied country, and the locals are not going to just roll over and surrender and you should not expect them to. It’s a complete mess, and make no mistake ¬– they blame the US. Saddam may have been a bastard, but Iraq now is soooo mush worse that they actually miss him.
The US may have made a deal with Sunni insurgents (who said y’all don’t negotiate with terrorists?) to whack Al-qeada, but how long will that last? ‘Coalitions’, said British politician, author and diplomat Harold Nicolson in 1948, ‘begin to disintegrate the moment the common threat is removed.’ What will the Sunnis do once Al-Queada have been pacified? These people are taking the long view – they are not going anywhere, they are fighting for their country.
As are the Shia. The ‘surge’ has created an ethnically cleansed and split Bagdhad which is only kept in place by pressure ¬– a military torniquet – and it has been argued that the US policy is simply divide and rule; by splitting the sectarian sentiments so violently, the US can claim some legitimacy in their presence.
But the Iraqis are not chumps. They can see the corporate plunder that has occurred since the invasion and they don’t like it. This is not over by a long shot – getting the US Army out is only the first step; next comes saying sayonara to the bases, he embassy, the corporations and the oil companies. Iraqis want their country back, and they will eventually get it because, after all, it is theirs.
And Iran will help them. And y’all will not declare war on Iran because you cannot afford it, but if y’all did the Iranians would pour over the border to fight US troops in Iraq and, with the help of all those disaffected shia, a generation that has grown up without a proper education and is thus be prime cannon fodder for the resistance, they will win.
Meanwhile, innocent citizens, men, women and children, get shot and blown up by all sides and the humanitarian crises increases with over 4 million refugees on the move. And how many Iraqi refugees has the USA, the country that created them, taken in since 2003? Less than 5000. Sodertalje, a small town in Sweden, has taken 6000. The USA has even left its interpreters, the ones it promised to help in return for help, out to dry.
This is what Colin Powell meant when he said ‘You break it, you own it.’ The USA has smashed Iraq into however many million pieces and seems incapable of putting it back together again. The few schools and hospitals the private sector have built are uninhabitable and anyway, there is no one to staff them – the doctors and teachers were all sacked and/or have bolted ¬– and so the US has a moral obligation to take as many Iraq refugees as is humanly possible. Why should Syria and Jordan bear the brunt of a refugee flood that is not of their making?
As a charter member of the Coalition of the Willing, I expect Australia to take its fair share of Iraq refugees too, but it’s rather ironic, isn’t it? You went to Iraq to avoid having to fight them on Mainstreet USA, but the result will be having to share Mainstreet, USA, with them. Once again, beware the law of unintended consequences and be careful what you wish for.
‘Oh, a round-trip?
Yeah, I’ve got to go back for some supplies of sanity, reason and logic, three commodities somewhat lacking out there with the lunar right. Still, I’ll be back because the interwebs is the Final Frontier where I must explore strange new worlds, seek out bizarre life who desire old civilizations, and generally boldly go where no leftie has gone before.
Cheers
Elroy
July 14, 2008 at 7:05 pm |
“I shall post on ScrewLiberals ”
It won’t help. It’s not like I’m one of the big guys.
“John McCain.”
That was John Kerry. Close. I can see the confusion.
“So you have voted Democrat? ”
Yes. Like I said, I’ll vote for the one I like, or the lesser of two evils.
“Care to readjust your statement in that context?”
No. You did state the government “can’t fire”. They can.
“Community organizers organize, therefore he is doing. And understanding.”
Fine. The next time a paper delivery boy is running I’ll run out and cast my vote because he’s organized, doing something and understanding things. Nice low standards.
“The PATRIOT Act is not. ”
I disagree. I can read about the Holocaust, but it won’t compare to actually seeing it, living it, smelling it. You can watch those old WWII movies about how the German’s ‘knew everything’ about your personal life (The sound of music comes to mind), but to actually have someone at your door saying it… it would be a far greater emotional event. Living it is important.
“Who from?”
Anyone and everyone. Isn’t it called the ‘Findlandization Effect’ or something like that?
“But does this mean you a fan the Mexico/USA/Canada trading bloc thang?”
Not exactly for or against it. I personally haven’t seen a difference since it was enacted. Lots of laws are passed without an (mainly, direct) effect on your life.
“what do the lower courts matter?”
Everything. Lower courts set precedents as well.
“By the time you’ve gotten to the ER, it’s too late.”
It depends on what it is. But yes, prevention is much better and cheaper.
“Make no mistake, US health policy kills.”
I’d say it’s a set of factors that include US policy. Or the abuse of it.
“Americans who resist any kind of social medicine model are happy to take advantage of Canada’s. ”
It’s not that. The drug companies overcharge us over here. That’s one of the reasons the meds cost so much. Canada has different rules on the pricing structure. Heck, you can buy the same med for your dog/cat and it’s cheaper!
“but if it does then what does that say about the society y’all have created?”
I can create wonderful work of art. And then someone can smash it over your head. Point is, is it the creation of something that is bad, or the abuse of it? Some groups like to abuse.
“She should never have been placed in that position in the first place.”
She has epilepsy. She could take pills but chooses not to. We just bought her some anti-biotics week and she hasn’t taken them. I spend my money on her and she just lets the pills sit on the counter!!! This is HER fault. My wife offered to pay her to do some simple accounting work at home and she REFUSED! She said she didn’t want to be typing on the computer all day. But she’ll chat online with her friends all day! If she can type to her friends, she can do the same work my wife and I do!!!
“it will effect her credit rating ”
She has no rating. Never pays anything as far as I can tell. She actually said to us ‘I’m used to getting what I want, even if I have to steal it.’ Classy, eh? Oh, and she’s 21.
“Still, as it suits your agenda for them to doing so, you are happy to believe it. How convenient. ”
I complain about what I see, and what bothers me. Especially if it hits home. Nothing convenient about it when I have to support someone else.
“Oh, good. When?”
Soon.
“Yes. And their rights should cost you money.”
This is where we disagree. It’s a complicated issue, some things should should cost another. But these should be few.
“It is foolish, if not naive, to think that the only killing going on in Iraq ”
I did state “not all deaths are aimed at us, or because we do something. They’re killing each other too. ” It kinda negates your point. I’ve already admitted to what your trying to say.
“Once again, beware the law of unintended consequences and be careful what you wish for.”
Exactly, it goes both ways!!
“and generally boldly go where no leftie has gone before.”
How about Mexico. That place is a hotbed of drugs, killing and corruption. It’s gotta be run by the conservatives, right? How about you go over there and fix it so people don’ t have to risk their lives crossing the border. Fix Mexico so they don’t have to flee! You can do it! Yes you can!!!
July 16, 2008 at 1:34 am |
‘It won’t help. It’s not like I’m one of the big guys.’
I’m sure they would savage anyone – equal opportunity hatemongers.
‘That was John Kerry. Close. I can see the confusion.’
No, it was McCain. Check this out: http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/16124.html
61 flip-flops by this singularly unqualified old curmudgeon.
‘Yes. Like I said, I’ll vote for the one I like, or the lesser of two evils.’
See? There is hope for you yet.
‘No. You did state the government “can’t fire”. They can.’
What I meant was it is unhealthy for a government to run the country as if it were a business. Businesses can sack employees but a country is stuck with its citizens, no matter how unproductive they might be. Also, when was the last time the US had a balanced budget? Oh,
that’s right…when a Democrat was in charge.
‘Fine. The next time a paper delivery boy is running I’ll run out and cast my vote because he’s organized, doing something and understanding things. Nice low standards.’
Your paper delivery boy could not do a worse job than Bush, but neither is running for POTUS – however, I’m not aware that McCain is a great businessman either, but I still maintain that businessmen are antithetical to good government.
‘I disagree. I can read about the Holocaust, but it won’t compare to actually seeing it, living it, smelling it. You can watch those old WWII movies about how the German’s ‘knew everything’ about your personal life (The sound of music comes to mind), but to actually have someone at your door saying it… it would be a far greater emotional event. Living it is important.’
Sure, but that does not mean that I cannot have an opinion. On paper the PATRIOT Act looks bad, and I’m sure it looks bad to those on the receiving end of it too.
Americans never lived communism, but that never stopped them from arguing more than strenuously against it and demanding, at gun point and beyond, that countries on the other side of the world practicing it whether they wanted to or not. And why? Because the US didn’t like the idea of it.
‘Anyone and everyone.’
Who? Who is going to invade Canada? Greenland?
‘ Isn’t it called the ‘Findlandization Effect’ or something like that?’
The what effect? Are you feeling alright?
‘Not exactly for or against it. I personally haven’t seen a difference since it was enacted. Lots of
laws are passed without an (mainly, direct) effect on your life.’
Not NAFTA, silly – the FTAA! Try to keep up!
‘Everything. Lower courts set precedents as well.’
Which are overturned by the Supremes.
‘It depends on what it is. But yes, prevention is much better and cheaper.’
And preventative medicine is incompatible with the US healthcare model. So, given that….
‘I’d say it’s a set of factors that include US policy. Or the abuse of it.’
The abuse of US policy? How? By who? And what ‘other factors?’
‘It’s not that. The drug companies overcharge us over here. That’s one of the reasons the meds cost so much. Canada has different rules on the pricing structure. Heck, you can buy the same med for your dog/cat and it’s cheaper!’
Yes, you can, because yes, they have! And why do the drug companies overcharge you? Because the free market medical model suffered by the American people allows it.
Now, let me see…no preventative medicine for the poor…expensive drugs…no, I would say that the US health system has got the be the worst in the developed world, and parts of the developing and third worlds too.
‘I can create wonderful work of art. And then someone can smash it over your head. Point is, is it the creation of something that is bad, or the abuse of it? Some groups like to abuse.’
Once again, your gift for analogy has failed you. A work of art is static whereas a society is fluid, ever changing and influenced by many things. If the USA is a work of art that was abused, when was the work complete? At what point was it perfected? And who spoiled it?
Society reflects the values, constraints and practices of its leaders to some extent. The last thirty years has seen great store put in the ideas of competition, that greed is good, that winning is everything no matter what, and of a primal social Darwinism that says the poor and the rich deserve everything they do and don’t get.
Gang warfare is a direct result of the various government policies over the years, from slavery to segregation to the CIA and FBI sponsored crack and weapons epidemic, not to mention the systematic and institutionalized racism that is so ingrained that y’all don’t even notice it and the neo-liberal economic policies of Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, Bush and Bush.
‘She has epilepsy. She could take pills but chooses not to. We just bought her some anti-biotics week and she hasn’t taken them. I spend my money on her and she just lets the pills sit on the counter!!! This is HER fault. My wife offered to pay her to do some simple accounting work at home and she REFUSED! She said she didn’t want to be typing on the computer all day. But she’ll chat online with her friends all day! If she can type to her friends, she can do the same work my wife and I do!!!’
Gee, you sure can pick ‘em! What kind of shelter are you running there? This is a popular right-wing tactic – to use isolated and individual cases and apply them to the population in general as way to prove their point. But to suggest that just because someone you know has done X that everyone is doing it is patently ridiculous.
‘She has no rating. Never pays anything as far as I can tell. She actually said to us ‘I’m used to getting what I want, even if I have to steal it.’ Classy, eh? Oh, and she’s 21.’
Again, I would suggest this is indicative of a wider malaise created by modern life. People are
told that certain things are required by them as measures of their success, yet at the same time they are denied the means by which they can achieve them. They are told that winning is everything, yet are set up for failure. And before you start on about this particular women, I mean this in a genera sense – I am not being specific. Still, she is only 21, she has a long way to go, but I suggest you do some more digging to find out WHY she feels the way she does.
Compassion! Understanding! Sympathy! Empathy!
‘I complain about what I see, and what bothers me. Especially if it hits home. Nothing convenient about it when I have to support someone else.’
What you do is conflate the specific with the general.
‘Soon.’
I’m waiting…
‘This is where we disagree.’
You don’t say!
‘It’s a complicated issue,’
Not really.
‘some things should cost another’
See? We don’t disagree!
‘But these should be few.’
So what should they be? I’ve told you what I think they should be – breathing, drinking, shelter,
eating, excretion, personal security from crime, financial security, health and well-being, safety net against accidents/illness and the adverse impacts thereof, education – so what do you think these ‘few’ should be? What would you leave out of my list?
‘I did state “not all deaths are aimed at us, or because we do something. They’re killing each other too. ” It kinda negates your point. I’ve already admitted to what your trying to say.’
What I’m trying to say is that the 4 million refugees and I million dead are a result of US invasion and occupation.
‘Exactly, it goes both ways!!’
How does it go left? How does it go both ways in this instance? Please explain.
‘How about Mexico. That place is a hotbed of drugs, killing and corruption. It’s gotta be run by the conservatives, right?’
Um, right, actually, it is run by conservatives.
‘How about you go over there and fix it so people don’ t have to risk their lives crossing the border. Fix Mexico so they don’t have to flee! You can do it! Yes you can!!!’
How about you do it? After all, the Mexican situation is a direct result of US policy. The USA, not Australia, has created and is perpetuating the Mexican misery we see today, so vote for change, Frznagan, and free the Mexican people! You can do it! Yes you can!!!
Cheers
Elroy
July 16, 2008 at 7:19 pm |
“No, it was McCain. Check this out:”
Flip-flops are another issue. Notice my key words: “I did before I didn’t. Where have I heard that before?” I was stating that someone actually said words that were contrary. Here is what Kerry said: “Kerry complicated matters with his now infamous words, “I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it.” Notice the similarity of the two. Saying I was before I was against. This is completely different than a flip-flop.
“61 flip-flops by this singularly unqualified old curmudgeon.”
Maybe so. We can slice and dice all day on what constitutes a flip-flop but I don’t have the time. There are times when a ‘flip-flop’ is good. Yes, I use the term loosely. One could find out their position was flawed or that new information changed the old. In those cases, it may be justifiable. I’d rather take a justifiable flip-flopper over a liar any day! Check out Obama’s 69 lies: http://www.antiobama.net/2008/07/obamas-list-of.html
“On paper the PATRIOT Act looks bad, and I’m sure it looks bad to those on the receiving end of it too. ”
As for me, I haven’t seen any difference. As for the ‘receiving end’, if that means the terrorists then I don’t care if it looks bad to them.
“Americans never lived communism”
Not here, but Americans have lived abroad and therefore can experience it firsthand. Good enough.
“Who? Who is going to invade Canada? Greenland?”
Like I said, no one will invade them because of our relationship. We could invade North Korea but do you think China would sit by and do nothing? Same concept. If we were small, powerless countries then Canada would be more attractive to those that like to take over countries.
“Not NAFTA, silly – the FTAA! Try to keep up!”
I am. Both apply. Silly boy. Think outside the box for a change!
“Which are overturned by the Supremes.”
Only if it goes that far. Not everything does!
“The abuse of US policy? How? By who? And what ‘other factors?’”
Must I explain everything to you? Lot’s of people manipulate, control or otherwise use the laws to their best advantage. I was listening to someone talk about Oxygen Concentrators that Medicaid/Medicare rents for about $100 a month. Maximum rental time is 72 months. So a patient can get one for 72 months and Medicare/Medicaid pays the $100 a month rental fee for a lifetime total of $7,200. But you can go online a buy one for about $600. Lesse, if you’re smart, you’ll realize that tons of money is wasted on renting them. It’d be much cheaper to actually purchase them! If you don’t catch it, then I want to rent you a few things here. I’d say someone is abusing/manipulating the system. But hey, since it’s the government paying, no one cares! That’s the beauty of social healthcare! If the money was out of your pocket, then you’d care!!!
“The abuse of US policy? How? By who? And what ‘other factors?’”
Nope. You fail to understand the point being made. You prefer to find the differences in the analogy. Try to seek out the point I’m making. No analogy is perfect. It’s not my fault if you choose to be obtuse.
“What kind of shelter are you running there? ”
My wife likes to help out people.
“This is a popular right-wing tactic – to use isolated and individual cases and apply them to the population in general as way to prove their point.”
I complain about a larger issue and pointed out a single case that I’m familiar with. Nothing wrong with that. I prefer talking about things that I have direct knowledge and experience with. Nothing wrong again. I am not saying ALL people are like her. Everyone is different. But there are times where you’ll see lots of similarities and come to a belief that certain things are related. How much? It varies.
“But to suggest that just because someone you know has done X that everyone is doing it is patently ridiculous. ”
That’s not my point. You misunderstand. But you also don’t look at the point I’m trying to make and comment on what I see/say. You find some way to distract from the issue and talk about that. How about actually addressing what I’m talking about?
“but I suggest you do some more digging to find out WHY she feels the way she does.
Compassion! Understanding! Sympathy! Empathy!”
We have plenty of the above, trust me. You have no idea what we’ve done to help those around us. But I don’t like it when I spend money on someone’s pills just so they can sit on the counter. Compassion for what? That they’d rather stay sick? When someone wastes my money then I’m not happy. You wouldn’t like it if I was wasting yours.
“What you do is conflate the specific with the general. ”
And you avoid and distract. Facts at hand are meaningless.
“I’m waiting…”
I’m working a job and a half. Give me a break. My wife is going in for surgery this week. Kinda busy.
“So what should they be?”
I spoke in a general sense. I don’t have a pre-made list that I can just copy/paste.
“I’ve told you what I think they should be – breathing, drinking, shelter,
eating, excretion, personal security from crime, financial security, health and well-being, safety net against accidents/illness and the adverse impacts thereof, education – so what do you think these ‘few’ should be? What would you leave out of my list?”
It’s not so simple as that.
Breathing: Last I knew, I don’t pay anybody to breathe. However, if you want to talk about pollution controls and standards… that’s different.
Drinking: Free booze for everyone! Party time! The bar never closes here!!
Shelter: Yes, make mine at the Waldorf Astoria.
Eating: Huh, whaddya say? Pass the lobster and crab legs.
Excretion:: Find a tree and fertilize it.
personal security from crime: I’ll take Mr. T!!! Everyone can now have their own bodyguard!!!
health and well-being: Personal Massage Therapists? Cool!! I’d be a lot healthier with a private Nurse! Don’t forget the ‘happy ending’
safety net against accidents: Every thing will be foolproof. And non-functional. Nerf homes? Sure! Nerf furniture? Sure!!!
education: Well, now that I have three Doctorates, I’d like to get another. Can’t work while I’m in school!!!
My point? Anything you ask for can be perverted/abused. Just because the government should provide shelter, it doesn’t mean you’ll like it or be happy in it. Lot’s of rat infested Projects in this country. No thanks, I’d rather have the home I live in. With government running and paying for things, they’ll have to make the decision on what is ‘right for you’. No thanks!
“How does it go left? How does it go both ways in this instance? Please explain.”
‘Be careful what you wish for.’ Hmm, this applies ONLY to one side of the political spectrum. Seriously, you can’t be that obtuse and dense!
“Um, right, actually, it is run by conservatives.”
So they run from one to go to another illegally. Yeah, makes sense now.
“How about you do it?”
I’d rather fix my own country. You however, seem to want to fix this country. So, why stop here? Go to Mexico! Go to Sudan! Go to the Crapistans!
“After all, the Mexican situation is a direct result of US policy. ”
Right. Everything is our fault. Glad you cleared that one up! Which policies?
“so vote for change”
I’m voting for McChange. Mr. HopeAndChange isn’t very specific. Says he’ll fix the world but doesn’t tell me the price tag. Somehow I don’t think we can afford to. Even pre-Bush. Our one little country that’s a bit more than 200 years old is going to fix the world with countries that have been around millenia longer than ours? Riiiiight. I’ve got a device that turns sand into fresh water if you’d like to buy it.
July 24, 2008 at 2:56 am |
‘Flip-flops are another issue. Notice my key words: “I did before I didn’t. Where have I heard that before?” I was stating that someone actually said words that were contrary. Here is what Kerry said: “Kerry complicated matters with his now infamous words, “I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it.” Notice the similarity of the two. Saying I was before I was against. This is completely different than a flip-flop.’
John Maynard Keynes once said ‘When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?’ John Kerry was adjusting his position according to changed circumstances – McCain does it because he either doesn’t remember what he has said before, doesn’t understand the subject, is trying to curry favour with whoever he is talking to at the time, says whatever pops into his head or simply just doesn’t care.
‘Check out Obama’s 69 lies: http://www.antiobama.net/2008/07/obamas-list-of.html’
I did, and I have to admit that I don’t like what I see. I find it disturbing. I will have to get back to you on this one.
‘As for me, I haven’t seen any difference. As for the ‘receiving end’, if that means the terrorists then I don’t care if it looks bad to them.’
No, I mean innocent citizens.
‘Not here, but Americans have lived abroad and therefore can experience it firsthand. Good enough.’
Australians live in the USA and therefore can experience the PATRIOT Act firsthand. Also good enough.
‘Like I said, no one will invade them because of our relationship. We could invade North Korea but do you think China would sit by and do nothing? Same concept. If we were small, powerless countries then Canada would be more attractive to those that like to take over countries.’
But who? Seriously, pretend the USA was not capable of defending Canada, who would take it over? Russia? Who?
‘I am. Both apply. Silly boy. Think outside the box for a change!’
But the FTAA has not been enacted, so how can it apply? Silly boy.
‘Only if it goes that far. Not everything does!’
The buck stops there. I suppose you think that conservatives should be on every court ¬– how sharing! How democratic!
‘Must I explain everything to you? Lot’s of people manipulate, control or otherwise use the laws to their best advantage. I was listening to someone talk about Oxygen Concentrators that Medicaid/Medicare rents for about $100 a month. Maximum rental time is 72 months. So a patient can get one for 72 months and Medicare/Medicaid pays the $100 a month rental fee for a lifetime total of $7,200. But you can go online a buy one for about $600. Lesse, if you’re smart, you’ll realize that tons of money is wasted on renting them. It’d be much cheaper to actually purchase them! If you don’t catch it, then I want to rent you a few things here. I’d say someone is abusing/manipulating the system. But hey, since it’s the government paying, no one cares! That’s the beauty of social healthcare! If the money was out of your pocket, then you’d care!!!’
This scenario sounds like a prescription for more government ownership of the public system, not less. The guys making out like bandits are the private medical supply companies, so it would seem logical that if government hospitals owned their own machines the situation you outline would not be occurring – outsourcing is the problem, sonny-jim.
Furthermore, an Oxygen Concentrator may cost $600 online, but I hope you are not suggesting that anyone who needs one just jumps on e-Bay and battles it out? Geez! Every life is sacred, huh?
What you seem to forget is the government’s money IS your money, and if the government kept private enterprise’s greasy maw out of the cookie jar y’all would get far better value for your money. It’s a, how you say, ‘no-brainer’? Every other industrialized country in the world, the state uses it’s purchasing muscle to keep big pharma/medical in check and provide decent cover for all its citizens except…yours. So they are all wrong and you are correct? OK…
Listen, my nephew has to have a serious operation on Monday. He is 1 year old today and his frontal skull plates have fused, and so they basically have to spit his noggin open like a melon, crack it like a walnut, lift his skull off, separate the plates and glue it all back again. This is highly specialized stuff, but a new and far more efficient method has been perfected by a specialist consultant. And guess who is going to perform the op? The specialist consultant. And how much will all of this cost my brother and sister-in-law? Zip and nada. If he was in the USA, the chances are he would grow up to be severely brain damaged or his parent would be in hopeless debt for the rest their naturals, but as it is…
‘Nope. You fail to understand the point being made. You prefer to find the differences in the analogy. Try to seek out the point I’m making. No analogy is perfect. It’s not my fault if you choose to be obtuse.’
You haven’t used an analogy and I’m not ‘choosing to be obtuse’. You are saying that preventative medicine is incompatible with the US healthcare model due to a set of factors that include US policy or the abuse of it, so I am quite reasonably asking what the factors policy, and abuse might be. If you can’t answer, fine. I know it’s a curly one and that defending the indefensible is a tad uncomfortable but there you go. That’s politics.
‘My wife likes to help out people.’
Then may her God bless her.
‘I complain about a larger issue and pointed out a single case that I’m familiar with. Nothing wrong with that. I prefer talking about things that I have direct knowledge and experience with.
Nothing wrong again. I am not saying ALL people are like her. Everyone is different. But there are times where you’ll see lots of similarities and come to a belief that certain things are
related. How much? It varies.’
Yes, it varies. Ascribing the sins of few to the many is a logical fallacy. However, supporting policies that would punish perfectly innocent people on account of some individuals’ malfeasance is plain unjust and unfair.
‘That’s not my point. You misunderstand. But you also don’t look at the point I’m trying to make and comment on what I see/say. You find some way to distract from the issue and talk about that. How about actually addressing what I’m talking about?’
What is your point then? Come on, spell it out! Treat me like I’m five. What is your point? Are you willing to accept the proposition that one should not advocate broad policy based on one or two individual cases that superficially appear to bolster your personal agenda?
‘We have plenty of the above, trust me. You have no idea what we’ve done to help those around us. But I don’t like it when I spend money on someone’s pills just so they can sit on the counter. Compassion for what? That they’d rather stay sick? When someone wastes my money then I’m not happy. You wouldn’t like it if I was wasting yours.’
No, I wouldn’t, but that doesn’t mean that everybody must be left to die in the gutter.
‘And you avoid and distract. Facts at hand are meaningless’.
No, I’m just trying to look at the bigger picture and the effects of your philosophy on the wider community. What is wrong with that?
‘I’m working a job and a half. Give me a break. My wife is going in for surgery this week. Kinda busy.’
Sorry. No rush. Give my best to your wife, for what it’s worth, and I do sincerely hope everything is OK. I do appreciate your time and I thank you for sparing me some.
But two jobs? You’re not trying hard enough! That’s downright un-American! As GWB said in 2005, ‘You work three jobs? Uniquely American, isn’t it? I mean, that is fantastic that you’re doing that.’
‘I spoke in a general sense. I don’t have a pre-made list that I can just copy/paste.’
Maybe not, but you must have some ideas. Examples. Clues, even? A general gist, mayhaps?
‘It’s not so simple as that.’
It’s not? Oh.
‘Breathing: Last I knew, I don’t pay anybody to breathe. However, if you want to talk about pollution controls and standards, that’s different.’
Well, maybe that’s exactly what I wanted to talk about. Clean, breathable air is surely the fundamental of human rights, no? Air that won’t kill you?
‘Drinking: Free booze for everyone! Party time! The bar never closes here!!’
Oh dear. I meant water. Clean, potable water. Clean, potable water should never, ever, be a profit-driven business, yet in Africa, Latin America, Asia, Europe etc it is – but as water supplies dwindle it should be even less.
‘Shelter: Yes, make mine at the Waldorf Astoria.’
Are you going to be consistently ridiculous? I meant that allowing homelessness in the richest country in the world is wrong, and as the sub-prime mortgage disaster continues unabated, homelessness will rise. What do you suggest is done about it? At the moment, the only thing being done is baling out those that loaned the money to people they knew couldn’t pay. And I thought y’all were against rewarding bad behavior!
‘Eating: Huh, whaddya say? Pass the lobster and crab legs.’
Yes, you are going to be consistently ridiculous. Oh well. I’d say ‘food’ is a pretty crucial element to stayin’ alive, but at the moment no one can afford it and they stuff they can afford will kill them. The politics of food is complex, but the point is that people across the world are not necessarily dying because they have no food per se; they are ding because of the politics that surround it. The world has enough food, or could have – what we don’t have is the political will to make sure every body gets some.
‘Excretion:: Find a tree and fertilize it.’
Unless thou art a bear, wot does it naturally; otherwise one might find one’s self in the company of plod.
(That’s ‘arrested’ to y’all).
‘personal security from crime: I’ll take Mr. T!!! Everyone can now have their own bodyguard!!!’
No! It means alleviating the causes of crime! Why can conservatives never take the long view?
‘health and well-being: Personal Massage Therapists? Cool!! I’d be a lot healthier with a private Nurse! Don’t forget the ‘happy ending’’
Oh dear, and so it goes, What that means is an accessible, universal, free health care system.
‘safety net against accidents: Every thing will be foolproof. And non-functional. Nerf homes?
Sure! Nerf furniture? Sure!!!’
You really are literal! No, this doesn’t mean covering everything with sponge, it means making sure that the injured do not go broke because of those injuries.
‘education: Well, now that I have three Doctorates, I’d like to get another. Can’t work while I’m in school!!!’
No, it means having a public education system with schools like palaces and teachers paid like politicians, or lawyers, or hedge fund managers, properly resourced and properly funded. Billions of dollars, trillions even. The children are your future!
‘My point? Anything you ask for can be perverted/abused. Just because the government should provide shelter, it doesn’t mean you’ll like it or be happy in it. Lot’s of rat infested Projects in this country.’
True enough, but the fact that the projects were badly built and used to wharehouse the disadvantaged does not mean that state housing doesn’t work per se. The world is littered with these failures but there are other ways; in our home state, for example, instead of building more high-rise storage units the government just bought regular housing on regular streets, which meant that the ghetto effect was eliminated. Of course, that people are that poor in the first place is the real worry…
‘No thanks, I’d rather have the home I live in. With government running and paying for things, they’ll have to make the decision on what is ‘right for you’. No thanks!’
Sure, but I’m not advocating totalitarianism – I’m advocating a mixed market where the state acts as a brake on the private sector.
“How does it go left? How does it go both ways in this instance? Please explain.”
‘Be careful what you wish for.’ Hmm, this applies ONLY to one side of the political spectrum.
Seriously, you can’t be that obtuse and dense!
No, it goes both ways, but seeing as the GOP have been in power for the past eight years, the wishes have been yours. Own it. Take responsibility.
‘So they run from one to go to another illegally. Yeah, makes sense now.’
NAFTA and the Tequila Crisis screwed Mexico, with the full blessing of the conservative leaders. They go from one conservative ruled oligarchy where they have to no chance to one where they have some – not much, but some. Wouldn’t you?
‘I’d rather fix my own country. You however, seem to want to fix this country. So, why stop here? Go to Mexico! Go to Sudan! Go to the Crapistans!’
I’m busy fixing mine, but the thing is the big picture – the USA, Mexico, the Sudan, the Crapistans, none will be fixed until the current system of one world government is replaced by one that is at least vaguely democratic and that has the people of the world as it primary motivator. A tough ask I know, but hey! What have we got to lose? And what else do you suggest? With the world economy teetering on the edge of utter destruction, there has to be a better way!
‘Right. Everything is our fault.’
Um, pretty much, actually.
‘Glad you cleared that one up!’
No worries!
Which policies?’
NAFTA, US farm subsidies; spend the weekend south of the virtual border down Deconstructing Mexico way ( http://deconstructingmexico.blogspot.com/ ) and find out just why the Mexicans are how they are.
‘I’m voting for McChange. Mr. HopeAndChange isn’t very specific.’
Nor is McChange. More of the same? No ta!
‘Says he’ll fix the world but doesn’t tell me the price tag. Somehow I don’t think we can afford to’
You can’t afford not to.
‘Even pre-Bush. Our one little country that’s a bit more than 200 years old is going to fix the world with countries that have been around millenia longer than ours? Riiiiight. I’ve got a device that turns sand into fresh water if you’d like to buy it.’
Your ‘one little country’ has been around for millennia too y’know, is one of the largest on the planet and, for now, the richest. You need to fix what you can in the world because you have been messing with the world for way too long. Time to pay the piper.
Cheers
Elroy